# Against Modding? **URL:** \ **Category:** PC\ **Created:** [March 18, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/against-modding/146662 "2013-03-18T14:21:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![thepw1](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/da6949/32.png) [@thepw1](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/thepw1)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/against-modding/146662/21 "2013-03-18T17:12:00Z")
Come on Darkloard, I know that you know its really not that complicated. there is a respiratory built on a server where everything lies as raw data, and its click here click there as long as the respo is intact. even if there is 20 respos, its nothing the modding community can not grasp. Its common to use 20+apps to get the job done step 1 step 2 step 3 … step 30 Oh that is to complicated. 0\_0 ---
**Author:** ![Fearpoint1](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fearpoint1](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/Fearpoint1)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/against-modding/146662/22 "2013-03-18T17:15:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _DarkLord7854 said:_ > > > [@](#): > > > > _McTash said:_ > > It doesn’t look like Frostbite 2 was designed with modding in mind. It supports a wide variety of genres. This presentation from DICE shows the build process for a frostbite 2 game: [http://dice.se/wp-content/uploads/Scaling-the-Pipeline.pdf](http://dice.se/wp-content/uploads/Scaling-the-Pipeline.pdf) [dice.se] > > > > To my laymans eye it seems that there are a lot of build steps that are highly optimized and require a multitude of tools to support the build process. I’m not sure how you would get past the need for these tools in order to release mod tools. > > Correct! > > Building just a map requires jumping between ~20-30 different programs, and that doesn’t even take into account the process of getting it into the game to test/play it, which requires the game source as everything is highly optimized and packaged for incredibly low loading times, despite the massive size of the map data and assets. > > Everything, down to the way the game is compiled, is built and optimized for maximum performance. Translation: It’s proprietary technology we’ve invested a huge amount of money into and we don’t want competitors anywhere near our tech. This is proven further by how EA has essentially designed many future franchise installments around Frostbyte technology when it’s been show for years that it’s tediously difficult for developer to use and for consumers to “patch”. Lets be honest here. ---
**Author:** ![thepw1](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/da6949/32.png) [@thepw1](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/thepw1)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/against-modding/146662/23 "2013-03-18T17:18:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _Fearpoint1 said:_ > > > [@](#): > > > > _DarkLord7854 said:_ > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > _McTash said:_ > > > It doesn’t look like Frostbite 2 was designed with modding in mind. It supports a wide variety of genres. This presentation from DICE shows the build process for a frostbite 2 game: [http://dice.se/wp-content/uploads/Scaling-the-Pipeline.pdf](http://dice.se/wp-content/uploads/Scaling-the-Pipeline.pdf) [dice.se] > > > > > > To my laymans eye it seems that there are a lot of build steps that are highly optimized and require a multitude of tools to support the build process. I’m not sure how you would get past the need for these tools in order to release mod tools. > > > > Correct! > > > > Building just a map requires jumping between ~20-30 different programs, and that doesn’t even take into account the process of getting it into the game to test/play it, which requires the game source as everything is highly optimized and packaged for incredibly low loading times, despite the massive size of the map data and assets. > > > > Everything, down to the way the game is compiled, is built and optimized for maximum performance. > > Translation: It’s proprietary technology we’ve invested a huge amount of money into and we don’t want competitors anywhere near our tech. > > This is proven further by how EA has essentially designed many future franchise installments around Frostbyte technology when it’s been show for years that it’s tediously difficult for developer to use and for consumers to "patch". > > Lets be honest here. FOR TRUTH! ---
**Author:** ![R0gueWarrior](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@R0gueWarrior](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/R0gueWarrior)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/against-modding/146662/24 "2013-03-18T17:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _DarkLord7854 said:_ > > > [@](#): > > > > _McTash said:_ > > It doesn’t look like Frostbite 2 was designed with modding in mind. It supports a wide variety of genres. This presentation from DICE shows the build process for a frostbite 2 game: [http://dice.se/wp-content/uploads/Scaling-the-Pipeline.pdf](http://dice.se/wp-content/uploads/Scaling-the-Pipeline.pdf) [dice.se] > > > > To my laymans eye it seems that there are a lot of build steps that are highly optimized and require a multitude of tools to support the build process. I’m not sure how you would get past the need for these tools in order to release mod tools. > > Correct! > > Building just a map requires jumping between ~20-30 different programs, and that doesn’t even take into account the process of getting it into the game to test/play it, which requires the game source as everything is highly optimized and packaged for incredibly low loading times, despite the massive size of the map data and assets. > > Everything, down to the way the game is compiled, is built and optimized for maximum performance. I am sorry, But I do not believe this Statement one bit! 20-30 programs is real hard to beleive. Can you name them please! Oh what If I wanted to purchase a copy of the FB engine to make “Insert Name Here” game, I am sure that it;s not to hard for Victory Games, or Bioware to use… What makes EA/Dice so CERTAIN that is beyond the general Public’s scope of intelligence? ---
**Author:** ![thepw1](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/da6949/32.png) [@thepw1](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/thepw1)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/against-modding/146662/25 "2013-03-18T17:27:00Z")
@ R0gueWarrior, by chance did you mod for bf2? POE2 to be more specific? If you did we might just know each other . 😉 I know what Demize99’s been up to, Wonder If Lex is still working for EA, I know senior is working on phone app games these days. Yourself? if you are who i think you are. ---
**Author:** ![DarkLord7854](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/d/3ab097/32.png) [@DarkLord7854](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/DarkLord7854)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/against-modding/146662/26 "2013-03-18T18:27:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _McTash said:_ > Thnks for response. Given the outcry for mod tools since BFBC2 and the incoming next gen consoles (which are basically multicore pc’s for all intents and purposes) can you see a future where mod support is provided again? Surely the advent of multicore processing in both the pc and console sphere will allow for a simpler build process as the true benefits of parallel processing are realized. Or is the current version of Frostbite to far gone and would require a ground up rewrite? Nobody has ever said, nor can I imagine anyone saying, that they flat out don’t want mod tools (quite the opposite in fact, it’s a regular topic of discussion). It’s not even a matter of processing power, even though the rigs we use are constantly upgraded, and the Frostbite devs burn out graphics card on a weekly basis. The issue is pretty straight forward, though complicated and difficult to address. Frostbite is extremely complicated and relies on a lot of licensed technologies that are not easily (even by throwing lots of money at them) re-licensed for public consumption. This is further compounded by the fact that it’s not a single editor, and thus can’t be released as an easy-install do-everything package. Can it be made into such a package? Of course, anything is possible, but the time frame and resources required for it is pretty tremendous. The package would then also have to be maintained, documented, have very thorough testing, and some level of support provided. The game would also have to have mod endpoints to support custom packages being added to it, as well as ways to ensure anti-cheat and such are handled properly. We’d probably also want to make sure there’s an easy and convenient way to distribute and maintain these mods, similar to Steam Workshop, where authors can upload their creations, receive comments, ratings, etc. The server software would also have to be upgraded to support these mods, followed by updating the backend to allow searching and finding of these servers, plus provide a way for server owners to actually load the content into their server as currently our ToS does not allow any viewing/editing/modifying of the server files. It’s not a simple thing as just dumping all our internal tools and letting people figure things out. I don’t think anybody thinks that our tools are beyond the comprehension of everyone, because we obviously use it, and we are all human (last I checked anyways..). But there is a massively steep learning curve because they are just that, dev tools. I’ll give you an example. I wanted to play around a bit with making a map and poke around Frostbite’s internals and see what kind of cool map I could make. I used to do maps for older games (AvP2, Starcraft, Bf1942), so I figured “can’t be that hard”. I never even got to the point of creating a basic empty map before being completely overwhelmed with the amount of options, programs, and data required to begin work before I had to give up and go bother some of the senior mappers and get a crash course on everything I needed to know to set things up. I’m sure I could have figured it out eventually, but the steep entry bar could easily turn away some otherwise fantastic community mappers just because they didn’t have the time available to learn things. So to summarize, yes, anything is possible given enough time and resources, but in order to release good tools that would benefit the community and really bring out the amazing talent you guys have, an enormous amount of work would be needed to get everything set up properly to enable you guys to really shine (and this isn’t counting the legal and licensing barriers either). Work would also have to be done in order to not release the game source with it, while still making the build process ensure that the maps load as quickly as the game base assets, which is no small feat, and ensuring the servers are stable and everyone is able to enjoy them fully. tl;dr: It’s a tremendous undertaking ---
**Author:** ![LinkZeppeloyd](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/linkzeppeloyd/32/104893_2.png) [@LinkZeppeloyd](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/LinkZeppeloyd)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/against-modding/146662/27 "2013-03-18T18:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _DarkLord7854 said:_ > > > [@](#): > > > > _McTash said:_ > > Thnks for response. Given the outcry for mod tools since BFBC2 and the incoming next gen consoles (which are basically multicore pc’s for all intents and purposes) can you see a future where mod support is provided again? Surely the advent of multicore processing in both the pc and console sphere will allow for a simpler build process as the true benefits of parallel processing are realized. Or is the current version of Frostbite to far gone and would require a ground up rewrite? > > Nobody has ever said, nor can I imagine anyone saying, that they flat out don’t want mod tools (quite the opposite in fact, it’s a regular topic of discussion). It’s not even a matter of processing power, even though the rigs we use are constantly upgraded, and the Frostbite devs burn out graphics card on a weekly basis. > > The issue is pretty straight forward, though complicated and difficult to address. Frostbite is extremely complicated and relies on a lot of licensed technologies that are not easily (even by throwing lots of money at them) re-licensed for public consumption. This is further compounded by the fact that it’s not a single editor, and thus can’t be released as an easy-install do-everything package. > > Can it be made into such a package? Of course, anything is possible, but the time frame and resources required for it is pretty tremendous. The package would then also have to be maintained, documented, have very thorough testing, and some level of support provided. The game would also have to have mod endpoints to support custom packages being added to it, as well as ways to ensure anti-cheat and such are handled properly. We’d probably also want to make sure there’s an easy and convenient way to distribute and maintain these mods, similar to Steam Workshop, where authors can upload their creations, receive comments, ratings, etc. The server software would also have to be upgraded to support these mods, followed by updating the backend to allow searching and finding of these servers, plus provide a way for server owners to actually load the content into their server as currently our ToS does not allow any viewing/editing/modifying of the server files. > > It’s not a simple thing as just dumping all our internal tools and letting people figure things out. I don’t think anybody thinks that our tools are beyond the comprehension of everyone, because we obviously use it, and we are all human (last I checked anyways..). But there is a massively steep learning curve because they are just that, dev tools. > > I’ll give you an example. I wanted to play around a bit with making a map and poke around Frostbite’s internals and see what kind of cool map I could make. I used to do maps for older games (AvP2, Starcraft, Bf1942), so I figured "can’t be that hard". I never even got to the point of creating a basic empty map before being completely overwhelmed with the amount of options, programs, and data required to begin work before I had to give up and go bother some of the senior mappers and get a crash course on everything I needed to know to set things up. I’m sure I could have figured it out eventually, but the steep entry bar could easily turn away some otherwise fantastic community mappers just because they didn’t have the time available to learn things. > > So to summarize, yes, anything is possible given enough time and resources, but in order to release good tools that would benefit the community and really bring out the amazing talent you guys have, an enormous amount of work would be needed to get everything set up properly to enable you guys to really shine (and this isn’t counting the legal and licensing barriers either). Work would also have to be done in order to not release the game source with it, while still making the build process ensure that the maps load as quickly as the game base assets, which is no small feat, and ensuring the servers are stable and everyone is able to enjoy them fully. > > tl;dr: It’s a tremendous undertaking The Realmware Colour Tweaker allowed us to disable the color correction. Just that one little mod was a huge improvement for eye strain and aesthetics. I don’t know anything about modding or how it’s done, but I have seen the end result, and it doesn’t seem impossible. EDIT: also, thanks for the info. Responses from DICE give the community something to work with and helps keep the ranting/conspiracy theories to a minimum. ---
**Author:** ![S0lid\_Scar](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@S0lid\_Scar](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/S0lid_Scar)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/against-modding/146662/28 "2013-03-18T18:41:00Z")
Yeah but what about the tweakers? Like bluetint removal? ---
**Author:** ![DarkLord7854](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/d/3ab097/32.png) [@DarkLord7854](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/DarkLord7854)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/against-modding/146662/29 "2013-03-18T18:42:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _LinkZeppeloyd said:_ > The Realmware Colour Tweaker allowed us to disable the color correction. Just that one little mod was a huge improvement for eye strain and aesthetics. I don’t know anything about modding or how it’s done, but I have seen the end result, and it doesn’t seem impossible. > > EDIT: also, thanks for the info. Responses from DICE give the community something to work with and helps keep the ranting/conspiracy theories to a minimum. Unfortunately, editing the game’s running memory and/or injecting pieces of code into it is nowhere near the same as building it into the game properly. I also never said it’s impossible, just that doing it properly requires a tremendous amount of time and planning. ---
**Author:** ![R0gueWarrior](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@R0gueWarrior](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/R0gueWarrior)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/against-modding/146662/30 "2013-03-18T18:42:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _thepw1 said:_ > @ R0gueWarrior, > by chance did you mod for bf2? > POE2 to be more specific? If you did we might just know each other . 😉 > > I know what Demize99’s been up to, Wonder If Lex is still working for EA, I know senior is working on phone app games these days. > > Yourself? if you are who i think you are. Not a member of PoE2 or PoE, I was a member of The Rising Conflicts mod team( DCX members) [Previous page](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/against-modding/146662.md?page=1)