# Being able to take ammo or health from teammates **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [May 16, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334 "2016-05-16T00:05:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Bertominus\_Rex](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/71c47a/32.png) [@Bertominus\_Rex](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/Bertominus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/261 "2016-06-07T16:24:00Z")
> [@snavelaer](#): > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > > [@khalid\_kib](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [@khalid\_kib](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This beats the whole purpose of teamwork. I hope Dice does not implement this, as I believe this will hinder team-play mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My memory could very well be off, so feel free to correct me. In Hardline, how I remembering the systems functioning is: grabbing health from medics would heal you incrementally up to full health like small health bags, and grabbing ammo from supports would give you a small portion of ammo back (1-2 mags for assault rifles). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s not about hindering team-play mechanics, it actually improves teamwork as a whole. Think of it as an additional layer of teamwork on top of what already exists. Players that haven’t learned the importance of dropping health/ammo will contribute more towards the teams efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The questions that should be asked are: does this diminish the roles by a considerable degree, and does it affect the experienced audience? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as grabbing ammo, my answer is a flat out no. It diminishes the role, but to a lesser degree than ammo crates in 1942 and Vietnam. It doesn’t affect experienced players either, as their efforts are still necessary. Getting back a small portion of ammo gives new players more value, but their value isn’t in replenishing ammo but rather in giving you what you need to find someone that does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Health is where I can see a problem. Health regenerates, and so health is a resource that is continuously replenished with or without the medic. The role itself was diminished in comparison to the classic titles, and in Hardline players were able to heal back to full, further diminishing the role. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It didn’t affect experienced players, but it could be argued that the effectiveness of this ability was too great considering it’s passive as far as the medic is concerned. The payout was almost equal to that of a health box. The question is though, if you could only get 20HP from this, then would it be an issue? I’d argue that it wouldn’t. 20 additional HP isn’t much, and the same logic applies as with the support: it would merely serve as a means as getting to a medic that drops health. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately, the system creates an additional layer to teamwork, and it serves to compliment the existing mechanic. It lowers the learning curve, without impacting the skill ceiling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience with this system in Hardline was terrible. Teamwork should be subscribed to, not coerced. Do you think Dice never thought about this prior to Hardline? I am sure they have, but I am also sure that they realized it will change a whole lot of team-mechanics, class roles, and even game-play experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am starkly against this. This is almost a deal-breaker for me, as it negates the whole purpose of teamwork in the Battlefield. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here’s a different way of looking at it: grabbing 1-2 mags for your assault rifle delays the need to find an ammo box. The ammo perk did this as well, and extended mags can do this as well, depending on how it functions. Should those mechanics be removed as well? They also diminish the support role. > > > > > > > > > > > > How did this mechanic for the support role impact your experience with Hardline? Strictly just this mechanic alone, how did it undermine any of your actions? How did it affect any other mechanics in place? > > > > > > > > > > I always move away from threads that have the same arguments over and over again. However curiousity got me back seeing this thread still up. > > > > > > > > > > It undermines the actions of those who are supportive players and it undermines also the players that are not giving ammo or medic bags. These solistic players are definitely not going to change if gamemechanics such as these are become common. The supportive players are already there but it is the sologamer that needs to be educated > > > > > > > > You’re right, this system won’t encourage players to drop down ammo. So the question is, how does it discourage them from doing so? The rewards are higher for dropping ammo, both for the support player and the players that require it. Dropping ammo puts you higher on the scoreboard, and you’re a bigger asset to your team for doing so. This mechanic gives value to players that never drop ammo, as they’re now a slightly more valuable asset than they were before. However, how does this increase in value discourage better performance? > > > > > > > > You’re saying that it undermines the roles, but how? You’re stating it, but not giving any examples or rationale behind it. > > > > > > I think I am perfectly clear. > > > It undermines teamplay because players that need to be educated don’t play their role. My team of supportive players has every right to crush your solistic playerteam. Because my team is refilled and yours run dry. Now your team of solistic players still have a fighting chance. By implementing these gamemechanics it says basically that players are to dumb to play their role. The game treats us as a moron. > > > > Wrong, the team that doesn’t drop ammo will run dry very quickly. The cooldown prevents ammo from being continuously taken, and the ammo that is picked up will often be depleted before the cooldown resets. > > > > It seems like your argument is that a lower learning curve is a bad thing, which just isn’t the case for casual play. The opposite is true if the skill ceiling isn’t affected. > > In your world it somehow strengthens your point. The learning curve invcrease with such a mechanic. No, the learning curve would be decreased. Added mechanics don’t equal to a higher learning curve. Here’s an example, items in games. These items may heal you, give you buffs, or replenish other resources. They’re added mechanics, but they lower the learning curve. A learning curve isn’t what you have to learn, but rather the skills required to progress through a game. In the case of Battlefield, players that don’t drop ammo are given additional value towards victory, and they’ve essentially become small ammo beacons. New players are bigger assets than they were before, thus lessening the pressure to learn and easing new players into their roles. ---
**Author:** ![rock1obsta](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/rock1obsta/32/103288_2.png) [@rock1obsta](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/rock1obsta)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/262 "2016-06-08T21:19:00Z")
> [@Turbo\_Siats](#): > > Variables exist for a reason, and having them is where all meaningful experience comes from. Having variables means that things can go in different ways, good or bad. Without allowing room for people to do some bad things, there are no valued and meaningful experiences from when people do good things. > > There can be no chance to feel like you’re clicking with other playing, working together, and pulling off an organized effort when there’s no allowance for players to make the choices of either doing something, or not doing something, cooperating, or not cooperating. > > I’ve had an ammo carrier not give me ammo, despite me running after them for a couple of minutes and constantly requesting ammo. But in no way would I ever, out of the smallest mind and petty reactive behavior, use that as an argument to remove the variable, dynamic, and meaningful point of team-interaction of being reliant, dependent, upon ammo carriers to actually distribute their ammo. Their decision to enact a particular behavior is what makes the interaction real. > > The day that the state of things is that there are no longer people who are willing to interact in a positive manner in games is the day that nobody wants to play games anymore. > > Some people, in this thread and others, are making a big deal out of the smallest and pettiest things, such as there being the occasional lack of cooperation. That’s a part of inter-person-action-based life. And if a person can’t handle that, and wants to avoid all possibilities of such situations by removing the team-dependency variables, then they aren’t actually looking to play a team game, and so they should just play one of many DM games that are available. > > Battlefield is a team-based, squad-based, class-based, communication-based, dynamics-based game, whose value and meaning comes from those variables existing, and playing out in all different kinds of ways. As much as I wanted to, I couldn’t find a string anywhere in your point that would allow me to pull it apart. I still think being able to take your own ammo & health is a good idea. You have an excellent counter-point to such a system, however, it still doesn’t seem to address the biggest problem; the selfish player who refuses to drop ammo/medpacks, other than saying something like “we need those bad players to remind us what a good player does.” While true in a social sense, it’s a video game. We want to win. We can’t win if chuckleheads on our team are oblivious to the needs of the other teammates. ---
**Author:** ![snavelaer](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/snavelaer/32/103541_2.png) [@snavelaer](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/snavelaer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/263 "2016-06-08T22:47:00Z")
> [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [@khalid\_kib](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [@khalid\_kib](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This beats the whole purpose of teamwork. I hope Dice does not implement this, as I believe this will hinder team-play mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My memory could very well be off, so feel free to correct me. In Hardline, how I remembering the systems functioning is: grabbing health from medics would heal you incrementally up to full health like small health bags, and grabbing ammo from supports would give you a small portion of ammo back (1-2 mags for assault rifles). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s not about hindering team-play mechanics, it actually improves teamwork as a whole. Think of it as an additional layer of teamwork on top of what already exists. Players that haven’t learned the importance of dropping health/ammo will contribute more towards the teams efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The questions that should be asked are: does this diminish the roles by a considerable degree, and does it affect the experienced audience? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as grabbing ammo, my answer is a flat out no. It diminishes the role, but to a lesser degree than ammo crates in 1942 and Vietnam. It doesn’t affect experienced players either, as their efforts are still necessary. Getting back a small portion of ammo gives new players more value, but their value isn’t in replenishing ammo but rather in giving you what you need to find someone that does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Health is where I can see a problem. Health regenerates, and so health is a resource that is continuously replenished with or without the medic. The role itself was diminished in comparison to the classic titles, and in Hardline players were able to heal back to full, further diminishing the role. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It didn’t affect experienced players, but it could be argued that the effectiveness of this ability was too great considering it’s passive as far as the medic is concerned. The payout was almost equal to that of a health box. The question is though, if you could only get 20HP from this, then would it be an issue? I’d argue that it wouldn’t. 20 additional HP isn’t much, and the same logic applies as with the support: it would merely serve as a means as getting to a medic that drops health. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately, the system creates an additional layer to teamwork, and it serves to compliment the existing mechanic. It lowers the learning curve, without impacting the skill ceiling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience with this system in Hardline was terrible. Teamwork should be subscribed to, not coerced. Do you think Dice never thought about this prior to Hardline? I am sure they have, but I am also sure that they realized it will change a whole lot of team-mechanics, class roles, and even game-play experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am starkly against this. This is almost a deal-breaker for me, as it negates the whole purpose of teamwork in the Battlefield. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here’s a different way of looking at it: grabbing 1-2 mags for your assault rifle delays the need to find an ammo box. The ammo perk did this as well, and extended mags can do this as well, depending on how it functions. Should those mechanics be removed as well? They also diminish the support role. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How did this mechanic for the support role impact your experience with Hardline? Strictly just this mechanic alone, how did it undermine any of your actions? How did it affect any other mechanics in place? > > > > > > > > > > > > I always move away from threads that have the same arguments over and over again. However curiousity got me back seeing this thread still up. > > > > > > > > > > > > It undermines the actions of those who are supportive players and it undermines also the players that are not giving ammo or medic bags. These solistic players are definitely not going to change if gamemechanics such as these are become common. The supportive players are already there but it is the sologamer that needs to be educated > > > > > > > > > > You’re right, this system won’t encourage players to drop down ammo. So the question is, how does it discourage them from doing so? The rewards are higher for dropping ammo, both for the support player and the players that require it. Dropping ammo puts you higher on the scoreboard, and you’re a bigger asset to your team for doing so. This mechanic gives value to players that never drop ammo, as they’re now a slightly more valuable asset than they were before. However, how does this increase in value discourage better performance? > > > > > > > > > > You’re saying that it undermines the roles, but how? You’re stating it, but not giving any examples or rationale behind it. > > > > > > > > I think I am perfectly clear. > > > > It undermines teamplay because players that need to be educated don’t play their role. My team of supportive players has every right to crush your solistic playerteam. Because my team is refilled and yours run dry. Now your team of solistic players still have a fighting chance. By implementing these gamemechanics it says basically that players are to dumb to play their role. The game treats us as a moron. > > > > > > Wrong, the team that doesn’t drop ammo will run dry very quickly. The cooldown prevents ammo from being continuously taken, and the ammo that is picked up will often be depleted before the cooldown resets. > > > > > > It seems like your argument is that a lower learning curve is a bad thing, which just isn’t the case for casual play. The opposite is true if the skill ceiling isn’t affected. > > > > In your world it somehow strengthens your point. The learning curve invcrease with such a mechanic. > > No, the learning curve would be decreased. Added mechanics don’t equal to a higher learning curve. > > Here’s an example, items in games. These items may heal you, give you buffs, or replenish other resources. They’re added mechanics, but they lower the learning curve. A learning curve isn’t what you have to learn, but rather the skills required to progress through a game. > > In the case of Battlefield, players that don’t drop ammo are given additional value towards victory, and they’ve essentially become small ammo beacons. New players are bigger assets than they were before, thus lessening the pressure to learn and easing new players into their roles. So dropping ammo is a skill? Didn’t know. Maybe you didn’t noticed but the people that don’t drop ammo are not new players. If it would be new player the reason why they don’t drop ammo is easily explained. They are new. So by countering bad players their value is increased? Indeed but they should be punished instead of a’value’ increase. ---
**Author:** ![Bertominus\_Rex](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/71c47a/32.png) [@Bertominus\_Rex](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/Bertominus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 11:10pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/264 "2016-06-08T23:10:00Z")
> [@snavelaer](#): > > So dropping ammo is a skill? Didn’t know. Yes, dropping ammo is a skill. > [@snavelaer](#): > > Maybe you didn’t noticed but the people that don’t drop ammo are not new players. New players rarely drop ammo, but yes - experienced players can often fail to get into the habit as well. > [@snavelaer](#): > > So by countering bad players their value is increased? Indeed but they should be punished instead of a’value’ increase. In a competitive mode, punishing mistakes can play a valuable role. It can add layers of strategy that weren’t there before. However, in casual modes? That argument is a lot harder to make. Why not remove health regeneration, bullet counters, and full squad spawning from the Normal ruleset? Players should be punished for getting shot, punished for reloading early, and punished for dying, right? It’s not that simple, though. The Normal ruleset is there to lower the learning curve, and to provide an enjoyable experience for new and invested players alike. The goal is to craft a learning curve low enough to bring in new players in, and a skill ceiling high enough to keep the invested audience playing. ---
**Author:** ![snavelaer](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/snavelaer/32/103541_2.png) [@snavelaer](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/snavelaer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 11:56pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/265 "2016-06-08T23:56:00Z")
> [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > So dropping ammo is a skill? Didn’t know. > > Yes, dropping ammo is a skill. I rest my case. > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > Maybe you didn’t noticed but the people that don’t drop ammo are not new players. > > New players rarely drop ammo, but yes - experienced players can often fail to get into the habit as well. Experienced in how many hours played? Dropping ammo is learned in three sentences. Here it comes; Dear player. The class support is excellent in giving suppressive fire with his LMG. He also has a ammobox to provide his team with ammo and ofcourse himself. Drop by directional button left (?) these new players are not the problem .I don’t get no ammo and health since bfbc2. The problem is way more depressing than lack of skill or ‘bad teamplayer’ I’m afraid… ---
**Author:** ![Bertominus\_Rex](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/71c47a/32.png) [@Bertominus\_Rex](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/Bertominus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 12:36am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/266 "2016-06-09T00:36:00Z")
> [@snavelaer](#): > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > So dropping ammo is a skill? Didn’t know. > > > > Yes, dropping ammo is a skill. > > I rest my case. You give up your case. People often try to “win” discussions with empty statements, but give no real rationale or examples to back up their arguments. “I rest my case” is meaningless if there’s no explanation behind it. > [@snavelaer](#): > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > Maybe you didn’t noticed but the people that don’t drop ammo are not new players. > > > > New players rarely drop ammo, but yes - experienced players can often fail to get into the habit as well. > > Experienced in how many hours played? Dropping ammo is learned in three sentences. Here it comes; Dear player. The class support is excellent in giving suppressive fire with his LMG. He also has a ammobox to provide his team with ammo and ofcourse himself. Drop by directional button left (?) > > these new players are not the problem .I don’t get no ammo and health since bfbc2. > The problem is way more depressing than lack of skill or ‘bad teamplayer’ I’m afraid… This mechanic isn’t a solution to the issue of players neglecting to drop ammo, but rather a means to diminish the annoyance that this causes. I agree, it would be nice to fix the issue of players not dropping ammo, but that’s always been an issue with exception to 1942 and Vietnam as they didn’t have that mechanic. ---
**Author:** ![snavelaer](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/snavelaer/32/103541_2.png) [@snavelaer](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/snavelaer)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/267 "2016-06-09T01:05:00Z")
> [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > > So dropping ammo is a skill? Didn’t know. > > > > > > Yes, dropping ammo is a skill. > > > > I rest my case. > > You give up your case. People often try to “win” discussions with empty statements, but give no real rationale or examples to back up their arguments. “I rest my case” is meaningless if there’s no explanation behind it. > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > > Maybe you didn’t noticed but the people that don’t drop ammo are not new players. > > > > > > New players rarely drop ammo, but yes - experienced players can often fail to get into the habit as well. > > > > Experienced in how many hours played? Dropping ammo is learned in three sentences. Here it comes; Dear player. The class support is excellent in giving suppressive fire with his LMG. He also has a ammobox to provide his team with ammo and ofcourse himself. Drop by directional button left (?) > > > > these new players are not the problem .I don’t get no ammo and health since bfbc2. > > The problem is way more depressing than lack of skill or ‘bad teamplayer’ I’m afraid… > > This mechanic isn’t a solution to the issue of players neglecting to drop ammo, but rather a means to diminish the annoyance that this causes. > > I agree, it would be nice to fix the issue of players not dropping ammo, but that’s always been an issue with exception to 1942 and Vietnam as they didn’t have that mechanic. I understand that you want to win a debate. I am not here on these forums to win debates. My intententions to be here is only to help Dice make the best Battlefield possible. Battlefield1 or beyond… Now you say I try to win but you know you got yourself hopelessly stuck by saying dropping ammo is a skill. Which had no arguments or rationale either. It’s annoyance…true Imagine we both work on a battlefield. We both want to adress this annoyance. But we both have veto rights. You say to me; Snavelaer we do tagammo. Bertominus\_Rex sorry I have to dissmis it for a number of reasons but I still want to adress this annoyance. Than what you say ? ---
**Author:** ![Bertominus\_Rex](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/71c47a/32.png) [@Bertominus\_Rex](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/Bertominus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 3:32am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/268 "2016-06-09T03:32:00Z")
> [@snavelaer](#): > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > > > > So dropping ammo is a skill? Didn’t know. > > > > > > > > Yes, dropping ammo is a skill. > > > > > > I rest my case. > > > > You give up your case. People often try to “win” discussions with empty statements, but give no real rationale or examples to back up their arguments. “I rest my case” is meaningless if there’s no explanation behind it. > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you didn’t noticed but the people that don’t drop ammo are not new players. > > > > > > > > New players rarely drop ammo, but yes - experienced players can often fail to get into the habit as well. > > > > > > Experienced in how many hours played? Dropping ammo is learned in three sentences. Here it comes; Dear player. The class support is excellent in giving suppressive fire with his LMG. He also has a ammobox to provide his team with ammo and ofcourse himself. Drop by directional button left (?) > > > > > > these new players are not the problem .I don’t get no ammo and health since bfbc2. > > > The problem is way more depressing than lack of skill or ‘bad teamplayer’ I’m afraid… > > > > This mechanic isn’t a solution to the issue of players neglecting to drop ammo, but rather a means to diminish the annoyance that this causes. > > > > I agree, it would be nice to fix the issue of players not dropping ammo, but that’s always been an issue with exception to 1942 and Vietnam as they didn’t have that mechanic. > > I understand that you want to win a debate. I am not here on these forums to win debates. My intententions to be here is only to help Dice make the best Battlefield possible. If that was the case, then you wouldn’t have said something as meanlingless as “case closed”. I don’t care about “winning” debates, as there’s no such thing as winning one. Exploring topics is the reward in itself, but there’s very little to explore when no examples or rationale are given on the opposing end. > [@snavelaer](#): > > Now you say I try to win but you know you got yourself hopelessly stuck by saying dropping ammo is a skill. Which had no arguments or rationale either. Skill is nothing more than a particular ability. Opening a door in a video game is a skill: you’ve learned that a specific button press while the crosshair is on the door will open that said door. It required learning, you can get better at it, and it’s an ability that you perform. Feel free to show me any other empty statements I made. I try to push you to give examples and rationale as a means to push the discussion forward. If you can’t provide solid arguments, then I poke holes in them. Unfortunately, you’ve done very little when backing up your own statements. ---
**Author:** ![snavelaer](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/snavelaer/32/103541_2.png) [@snavelaer](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/snavelaer)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 3:51am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/269 "2016-06-09T03:51:00Z")
> [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > So dropping ammo is a skill? Didn’t know. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, dropping ammo is a skill. > > > > > > > > I rest my case. > > > > > > You give up your case. People often try to “win” discussions with empty statements, but give no real rationale or examples to back up their arguments. “I rest my case” is meaningless if there’s no explanation behind it. > > > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > > > > > > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you didn’t noticed but the people that don’t drop ammo are not new players. > > > > > > > > > > New players rarely drop ammo, but yes - experienced players can often fail to get into the habit as well. > > > > > > > > Experienced in how many hours played? Dropping ammo is learned in three sentences. Here it comes; Dear player. The class support is excellent in giving suppressive fire with his LMG. He also has a ammobox to provide his team with ammo and ofcourse himself. Drop by directional button left (?) > > > > > > > > these new players are not the problem .I don’t get no ammo and health since bfbc2. > > > > The problem is way more depressing than lack of skill or ‘bad teamplayer’ I’m afraid… > > > > > > This mechanic isn’t a solution to the issue of players neglecting to drop ammo, but rather a means to diminish the annoyance that this causes. > > > > > > I agree, it would be nice to fix the issue of players not dropping ammo, but that’s always been an issue with exception to 1942 and Vietnam as they didn’t have that mechanic. > > > > I understand that you want to win a debate. I am not here on these forums to win debates. My intententions to be here is only to help Dice make the best Battlefield possible. > > If that was the case, then you wouldn’t have said something as meanlingless as “case closed”. > > I don’t care about “winning” debates, as there’s no such thing as winning one. Exploring topics is the reward in itself, but there’s very little to explore when no examples or rationale are given on the opposing end. > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > Now you say I try to win but you know you got yourself hopelessly stuck by saying dropping ammo is a skill. Which had no arguments or rationale either. > > Skill is nothing more than a particular ability. Opening a door in a video game is a skill: you’ve learned that a specific button press while the crosshair is on the door will open that said door. It required learning, you can get better at it, and it’s an ability that you perform. > > Feel free to show me any other empty statements I made. I try to push you to give examples and rationale as a means to push the discussion forward. If you can’t provide solid arguments, then I poke holes in them. Unfortunately, you’ve done very little when backing up your own statements. Everything what I said is backing up my own statements. You blame me for a oneliner and your last 4 sentences are even worse than that. I bet you alway say those 4 sentences when you feel you lost a debate. Don’t even reply I have seen enough. ---
**Author:** ![Bertominus\_Rex](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/71c47a/32.png) [@Bertominus\_Rex](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/Bertominus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 4:25am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/270 "2016-06-09T04:25:00Z")
Starting from your first post on page 13: > [@snavelaer](#): > > It undermines the actions of those who are supportive players and it undermines also the players that are not giving ammo or medic bags. These solistic players are definitely not going to change if gamemechanics such as these are become common. The supportive players are already there but it is the sologamer that needs to be educated You made 3 statements: the mechanic undermines roles, players that don’t drop ammo won’t change due to these mechanics, and that they need to be changed. 3 statements, with nothing behind them. > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > You’re right, this system won’t encourage players to drop down ammo. So the question is, how does it discourage them from doing so? The rewards are higher for dropping ammo, both for the support player and the players that require it. Dropping ammo puts you higher on the scoreboard, and you’re a bigger asset to your team for doing so. This mechanic gives value to players that never drop ammo, as they’re now a slightly more valuable asset than they were before. However, how does this increase in value discourage better performance? > > You’re saying that it undermines the roles, but how? You’re stating it, but not giving any examples or rationale behind it. I responded by agreeing, that yes - these mechanics won’t change the behaviour. I asked if it would discourage players from doing so, which was ignored. If it doesn’t encourage or discourage players, then it’s an irrelevant point. I then point out that your arguments had nothing to back them up, and asked you to explain as to why. This was your biggest point, after all. > [@snavelaer](#): > > I think I am perfectly clear. > It undermines teamplay because players that need to be educated don’t play their role. My team of supportive players has every right to crush your solistic playerteam. Because my team is refilled and yours run dry. Now your team of solistic players still have a fighting chance. By implementing these gamemechanics it says basically that players are to dumb to play their role. The game treats us as a moron. You reply by stating that you were perfectly clear. Perfectly clear with a point that consisted of a single sentence? None the less, you gave your explanation. > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > Wrong, the team that doesn’t drop ammo will run dry very quickly. The cooldown prevents ammo from being continuously taken, and the ammo that is picked up will often be depleted before the cooldown resets. > > It seems like your argument is that a lower learning curve is a bad thing, which just isn’t the case for casual play. The opposite is true if the skill ceiling isn’t affected. I replied by explaining why that was wrong, and gave you an explanation as to why. I then made an assumption as to what your point was with the last two sentences. I took “players are too dumb to play their role”, and “game treats us as morons” as you thinking that a lower learning curve is bad. > [@snavelaer](#): > > By being able to take health and ammo from teammates it doesn’t lower the learning curve it makes it higher. There is no learning involved in dropping ammo. By making it so that tag ammo refills certain portion and have to drop a ammobox or a cooldown or only mag it makes it rather complicated. The sololistic gamer is the problem. By adding mechanics that counter his stupidness it becomes even worse. Although nice and with the best intentions the gamerules get more and more complicated. Complicated rules doesn’t make a game better…period. It also increase the chance of glitches and what not. I beg for simple gamerules. > > > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > > Wrong, the team that doesn’t drop ammo will run dry very quickly. The cooldown prevents ammo from being continuously taken, and the ammo that is picked up will often be depleted before the cooldown resets. > > > > It seems like your argument is that a lower learning curve is a bad thing, which just isn’t the case for casual play. The opposite is true if the skill ceiling isn’t affected. > > In your world it somehow strengthens your point. The learning curve invcrease with such a mechanic. Admittedly, I never read the first part of your reply. I figured it was a reply to someone else and skipped it to read what you said directly towards the quote. None the less, you’re points are that: it makes the learning curve higher, there is no learning involved in dropping ammo, and that adding mechanics can cause bugs. Adding mechanics can definitely increase the chance of creating bugs, but that’s not a valid reason to not add in new mechanics. First you consider the design decision, then you consider technical limitations. It’s an iterative process, and the design decision itself may change due to technical limitations. However, we don’t know what’s limiting mechanics from being implemented, and so we’re focused purely on the first step. > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > No, the learning curve would be decreased. Added mechanics don’t equal to a higher learning curve. > > Here’s an example, items in games. These items may heal you, give you buffs, or replenish other resources. They’re added mechanics, but they lower the learning curve. A learning curve isn’t what you have to learn, but rather the skills required to progress through a game. > > In the case of Battlefield, players that don’t drop ammo are given additional value towards victory, and they’ve essentially become small ammo beacons. New players are bigger assets than they were before, thus lessening the pressure to learn and easing new players into their roles. I replied by explaining why the learning curve would be decreased. > [@snavelaer](#): > > So dropping ammo is a skill? Didn’t know. Maybe you didn’t noticed but the people that don’t drop ammo are not new players. If it would be new player the reason why they don’t drop ammo is easily explained. They are new. > So by countering bad players their value is increased? Indeed but they should be punished instead of a’value’ increase. You ignored my argument, and gave no counter-points. You fell back to your second point that there’s no learning involved in dropping ammo. You then made the statement that players should be punished, with no reasoning as to why. > [@Bertominus\_Rex](#): > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > So dropping ammo is a skill? Didn’t know. > > Yes, dropping ammo is a skill. > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > Maybe you didn’t noticed but the people that don’t drop ammo are not new players. > > New players rarely drop ammo, but yes - experienced players can often fail to get into the habit as well. > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > So by countering bad players their value is increased? Indeed but they should be punished instead of a’value’ increase. > > In a competitive mode, punishing mistakes can play a valuable role. It can add layers of strategy that weren’t there before. However, in casual modes? That argument is a lot harder to make. > > Why not remove health regeneration, bullet counters, and full squad spawning from the Normal ruleset? Players should be punished for getting shot, punished for reloading early, and punished for dying, right? > > It’s not that simple, though. The Normal ruleset is there to lower the learning curve, and to provide an enjoyable experience for new and invested players alike. The goal is to craft a learning curve low enough to bring in new players in, and a skill ceiling high enough to keep the invested audience playing. I made an empty statement that yes, dropping ammo is a skill. Answered your question that indeed, I realize that not all players that neglect to drop ammo are new. However, they are a subset of this group. I then give you an explanation as to why casual modes benefit from lower learning curves, which you ignored. Then the discussion becomes a mess after this point. I explained why dropping ammo is a skill, which you ignored as well. You made no strong arguments against my own. At this point, anyone reading this must be thinking, “You have way too much time on your hands”. You’re right. I’m not proud of myself. ---
**Author:** ![B3ANTOWN\_B3A5T](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/b3antown_b3a5t/32/101262_2.png) [@B3ANTOWN\_B3A5T](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/B3ANTOWN_B3A5T)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 4:26am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/271 "2016-06-09T04:26:00Z")
I don’t recall hearing any outrage about hardline having this feature or that it ruined teamwork. If it worked there, why wouldn’t it work for BF1? ---
**Author:** ![GnomeScat](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/gnomescat/32/102080_2.png) [@GnomeScat](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/GnomeScat)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 4:43am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/272 "2016-06-09T04:43:00Z")
I feel like this would further discourage teamwork, your squad and teammates should have the responsibility of actively providing support. I don’t like the “do it yourself” tone taking health and ammo would project, versus how giving promotes being an active member of a squad. ---
**Author:** ![Turbo\_Siats](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Turbo\_Siats](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/Turbo_Siats)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 5:34am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/273 "2016-06-09T05:34:00Z")
> [@B3ANTOWN\_\_B3A5T](#): > > I don’t recall hearing any outrage about hardline having this feature or that it ruined teamwork. > > If it worked there, why wouldn’t it work for BF1? Hardline received below-average reviews all-around, so it’s unlikely that people would say much about a very specific aspect of the gameplay, like tag-replenishment, when they expressed a general dissatisfaction with the package as a whole, and then moved on. Also, most Battlefield players haven’t played Hardline. And regarding those that have, when people don’t stick with playing Hardline multiplayer, they aren’t going to get around to nit-picking its smaller parts. ---
**Author:** ![snavelaer](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/snavelaer/32/103541_2.png) [@snavelaer](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/snavelaer)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 6:06am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/274 "2016-06-09T06:06:00Z")
Holy cow we wrote a lot. I understand that I am sometimes hard to follow I will do my best. It undermines the fundaments of Battlefield in my opinion. Teamplay ruling over sololistic play. However gameplaymechanic as this undermines that Battlefield rule; Teamplay ruling solistic play because now a team can still get a couple of mags without working together. I said that the player that doesn’t drop ammo needs to be educated. He needs to learn that dropping ammo is needed so he and his fellow teammates can continuing fire their guns. It doesn’t discourages or encourages players to drop ammo as well. The learning curve is not lowered it is more ‘confused’ or higher maybe because apperently people can still fire guns around that support without dropping a box. You view learning curve different, ok. First there is hardly a learning curve in dropping a box. I said further that the team that drops ammo should win over the team that doesn’t which you reply that you disagree and than say the same as me . Which I found odd. You additioned that there is a cooldown. It still means it undermines my attempts as a good support. The good support is less needed because there is tagammo. Your stealing my job !!! Get your dirty hands out of my ammobag that’s my job. A job I and many others have a passion for. I love the supportive role. I love the supportive roles Battlefield provide. Repairing other guys tank, healing a few guys so we keep firepower. Throwing motion sensors so friendlies can see what is in front them etc. I love it when that good player get downed, I revive him or refill . We can continuing fighting. The argument ; But it doesn’t get in the way is true maybe but let me do my job. Don’t let some automated mechanic take my job I love. Players should be punished in the sense their team runs dry. Your definiton of skill is learning the button of the ammobox. You fall over certain definitions and go into detail totally not relevant to the discussion. You say I ignore certain replies. Maybe because I think they are irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![snavelaer](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/snavelaer/32/103541_2.png) [@snavelaer](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/snavelaer)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 6:16am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/275 "2016-06-09T06:16:00Z")
Get your dirty hands out of our Ammobox. We have a passion for our supportive role. Making it ‘automatic’ ruines the fun. We always delivered our own ammo but it seems we get replaced by automatic ammodispensers. ---
**Author:** ![HighbornDeathMan](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/h/d07c76/32.png) [@HighbornDeathMan](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/HighbornDeathMan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 6:23am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/276 "2016-06-09T06:23:00Z")
I think that this mechanic worked in Hardline, but I think BF1 should not use this. BF1 should be gritty and atmospheric, and if DICE do that, then adding this mechanic, would take away some of the immersiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Explicits\_Sister](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/explicits_sister/32/101899_2.png) [@Explicits\_Sister](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/Explicits_Sister)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/277 "2016-06-09T15:26:00Z")
> [@snavelaer](#): > > Get your dirty hands out of our Ammobox. We have a passion for our supportive role. Making it ‘automatic’ ruines the fun. We always delivered our own ammo but it seems we get replaced by automatic ammodispensers. Only ones being replaced are the supports and medics that don’t do their jobs ---
**Author:** ![rock1obsta](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/rock1obsta/32/103288_2.png) [@rock1obsta](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/rock1obsta)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/278 "2016-06-09T15:30:00Z")
> [@Explicits\_Sister](#): > > > [@snavelaer](#): > > > > Get your dirty hands out of our Ammobox. We have a passion for our supportive role. Making it ‘automatic’ ruines the fun. We always delivered our own ammo but it seems we get replaced by automatic ammodispensers. > > Only ones being replaced are the supports and medics that don’t do their jobs Right. If the medic/support are just too oblivious to drop health/ammo, then people should be able to take it. There is no downside to this. Take care of your teammates and it’s not an issue at all. ---
**Author:** ![JadedJunglist](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/jadedjunglist/32/102351_2.png) [@JadedJunglist](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/JadedJunglist)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/279 "2016-06-09T20:29:00Z")
> [@Turbo\_Siats](#): > > when people don’t stick with playing Hardline multiplayer, they aren’t going to get around to nit-picking its smaller parts. and when those who have played it in this discussion praise and welcome this mechanic? ---
**Author:** ![Rev0verDrive](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@Rev0verDrive](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/Rev0verDrive)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334/280 "2016-06-09T21:36:00Z")
Allowing taggable ammo/meds only re-encourages these to not play their role. They’re already oblivious to thinking past their own goals as is. Absolutely no understanding as to why you resupply players in the first place. It’s not about friggin points/xp. You fully resupply assault/medics so they have the ability to be in the fight, cover your backside and provide you with meds/revives. You fully resupply engineers so they have the tools to take out the vehicles that are without a doubt about to roflstomp you into oblivion. Regardless if the assault/engi does their job you should be thinking ahead and making sure they have what they need to do everything in their power to keep you in the fight. The same applies to assault/medics. They should be dropping meds to keep their supply line and antivehicle players alive. The more we do to encourage this mentality the better. Taggables are meant for the new and should only be, if at all, in the “Intro to BF/learning/training” preset with all the other game-assisted features. [Previous page](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334.md?page=13) [Next page](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/being-able-to-take-ammo-or-health-from-teammates/101334.md?page=15)