# Valentine MAA needs love. **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [February 6, 2019, 3:21am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/valentine-maa-needs-love/106512 "2019-02-06T03:21:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 2\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![WinterWarhurst](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/winterwarhurst/32/107315_2.png) [@WinterWarhurst](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/WinterWarhurst)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 3:28pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/valentine-maa-needs-love/106512/61 "2019-02-08T15:28:00Z")
> [@Shrediron](#): > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > [@Shrediron](#): > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > [@Shrediron](#): > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > As a tanker main I hate getting one shot by bombers as much, if not more, than anyone. I actually think you are being far more reasonable in your response to me here, and inevitably data will be what devs look at to inform their opinion. > > > > > > > > > > I never felt I was being unreasonable. I have not changed my stance on anything. The difference is that I had to spell it out, but frankly I should not have had to…because to me its just basic 101. > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > That said even by your own 2-3 second estimation the Wirbelwind is bugged with double blast damage as its TTK is around half this. > > > > > > > > > > But as I stated, even IF it is bugged and the damage output is not intended, which based on how weak the valentine is to me (regardless of what gun) would seem to be the case. My fear is seeing the FlakP damage being lowered to pre 2nd patch when ALL AA was useless. I personally think pre jan patch was perfect…but pilots complained. > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > I want AA and SPAA to be effective against bombers and fighters alike, however I, and many others, will simply not back down from our belief that it should require a high degree of skill to kill a highly skilled pilot or tanker, whether they are in a bomber, a fighter, an SPAA or a tank. > > > > > > > > > > I disagree. Frankly its your bias/pride speaking (imo), not balance speaking. You must understand, I give ZERO cares about K/D ratio, and frankly all K/D does is hurt game play and create a toxic environment where one bro has to brag about how amazing he is to the other bro. It also pushes people to kill more than do the objective. Same thing in happens in any score kept game where the score is based on kills. The fundamental issue is that most of the AA in game is stationary. The only skill threshold in SAA is the players ability to track the plane and throttle the fire. In order to balance SAA around the “skill capped” in planes means you need “skill capped” SAA players, which pretty much means perfect accuracy. The issue is that netcode/latency/ping ALONE will not allow for this to happen, so there has to be a buffer. You can’t not take all reward from the non-elite player base (the majority) because when people lose more often than they win, they will find something else to do. If an AA player can not kill the plane regardless of how much they try and the pilot is brazen and nose diving directly at the AA, its broken. Period. > > > > > > > > > > And yes I understand that this goes both ways where the pilots need to win as well, but that is why I am arguing these points because the pilots are not the ones losing right now. I can go into most gamed with planes and find reasonable pilots owning the entire map, EVEN with flakpanzers around. > > > > > > > > > > Have you ever been frustrated in game because you could not get something done, or something like that happens to me where I get 5 instant deaths in a row simply when spawning REGARDLESS of where I spawn? I get fed up and look for something else to do. The last thing a business wants is their customer being frustrated with their product which will make the customer look for something else. In this case its entertainment. EA DICE right now CAN NOT AFFORD to lose players from BFV because of bad design/decisions that drive the customer to another form of entertainment. Simply put, the game design should not drive customers away to the competition. > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > Very often I load in to servers where the balance is not there, where only low level players man the AAs and can be defeated easily, but I also load into servers where top class players are say on Twisted Steel in Wirbelwinds, Ju-88s & Stukas and it’s simply miserable to play vehicles on the other team. In fact I often set myself the challenge to dismantle their air superiority, but also I often squad up because coordinated opposition requires a coordinated response. This game is complex, as you well know. > > > > > > > > > > Server balance in this game is non-existent, at least by my observation. When I make a funny or a gripe on forums (like this thread) its not based on one or two or three or even 10 experiences. Its based on something I have observed that happens time and time and time and time and time and time again. I then check to see if others observe the same issues. This helps weed out skill, computer, internet, etc if the sample size is large (which admittedly is not as large as I would like). > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > Should there be V-1s or 1000kg bombs that one hit kill tanks? Personally I would be better off without them, I can at least agree with you here to some degree, yet they exist, and as such you must adapt your gameplay style or die. If you are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes you can beat a bomber or Stuka. If they are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes they will beat you. > > > > > > > > > > I am fine with V-1’s, they are usually end game clutch tools with limited use. My issue is the exploitation of those mechanics by squads who artificially inflate their score to get the V-1 early, its cheating and circumvents the design goals. > > > > > > > > > > I disagree with the comment about being smart and beating stuka/bomber. Their ability to navigate around the AA is much more easily done than the AA’s inability to navigate or the MAA’s slower ability to navigate. For example. That short clip I posted earlier happened becasue I was on high ground, the plane flew low behind our base, pulled up and 1 shot me. I heard him for about 1.7 seconds before he killed me. He must have flown WIDE around the map to ensure I did not see him. There is no escaping that. I could go hide in a gully, but we know that does not work, but neither does being high up. The issue is that not only could I not escape that, I could also not shoot him down before he was out of range/LOS of my guns…the valentine overheats FAST and even the slow gun was useless. Against a good pilot like him with his 75/85 kills I have no options. That is why I made the video. That was not a one off occurrence and not just happening to me. I watch others try to take out planes and some of the AA in game simply wont do it. > > > > > > > > > > As I stated earlier, no player should have that much consistent control over the playfield, and even Flakpanzers in their allegedly broken state, do not have the power to control the entire playfield like the planes can. > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > Is the Valentine SPAA as useless on Hamada Breakthrough as you claim in your screenshot? I’ve gotten 111 kills in the first two sectors alone in one, and killed all their air, and that’s before it was buffed. I have at least 5 people on my friends list who do better than I do in the Valentine SPAA, and they all agree it’s OP, particularly against infantry. Against planes you have a low ROF but a high damage output. You have to be very accurate, and have great leading and tracking abilities, as well as placement with the terrain to escape to cover when the bombers with their 1000KG come looking to troll you. Again, I would rather they didn’t have these bomb, but they do, so adapt or die. > > > > > > > > > > Please post videos because I have an extremely hard time being convinced that they are as strong right now as you or your friends claim. Regardless of how I spec mine out, I simply do junk damage to bombers. Even fighters escape before I can kill them due to their speed. I fully admit I am the worst player of any game any genre of all time, the literal last place player in the world. THAT being said, your observations do not line up with the numbers (the ones I have collected at least). I see planes dominating left and right wiht extremely high kill counts. MAA, LUCKY to get 10 kills in a match (unless its the flakpanzer), and AA…LOL only if you are finishing off what someone else already started. > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > As for planes, or tanks, dominating… Well Breakthrough is notorious for this because you have such a high player density. Combine this with spotting, etc. And it’s going to be intense. Sometimes you load into a server where nobody is interested in taking a fighter up to maintain air superiority and keep bombers grounded. I love playing this role for my fellow squad mates and team. I, much like you, hate bombers, unless they’re in my squad and I’m protecting them. > > > > > > > > > > True. I see the same issues on Conquest as well. I dont see it on Panzerstorm, but I dont see anyone dominating Panzerstorm. The map size alone helps with balance. > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, nice to be more civil, I hope you can at the very least appreciate my perspective. > > > > > > > > > > I totally get your perspective. I just feel the discussion is not over until all questions have been asked and are answered and everyone is on the same playing field. I find it extremely infuriating to see design decisions being done by trial and error( costing time and money) when a strong group brainstorming session can weed out most issues beforehand saving time and money. > > > > > > > > Flakpanzer confirmed bugged by devs, and will be patched in next update: > > > > > > > > [https://twitter.com/JaqubAjmal/status/1093435582708137985](https://twitter.com/JaqubAjmal/status/1093435582708137985) > > > > > > > > As for the rest, I don’t know what to say other than what I have said before. To beat top pilots you need to practice, you need to outsmart them, you need to use the proper counters and tactics available to you. I have friends that go on 100+ Valentine SPAA streaks every day. It is possible, but you simply, respectfully, need to adapt your gameplay style or you will be rightly punished. Currently AA is powerful and capable in the right hands, in the right circumstances. > > > > > > > > Do I think bombers are perfectly balanced? Nope. It’s one of the hardest things to balance in the game. And as a tanker it is perhaps one of my top 3 threats, yet I rarely get bombed, yet alone one hit kill bombed, and when I do, I get mad, but mad at myself because I should have been more aware, I should have reacted accordingly, and that ultimately falls on me. > > > > > > I already explained to you why your ideology is incorrect. > > > > > > 1. This has nothing to do with me or my skill and I already explained why. > > > 2. Please provide proof of your claims about your friends, I highly doubt your friends are doing 100+ every day on the valentine. Hyperbole at its finest. > > > > 1. Your video and hypothesis does not exist independently of your skill, it is directly proportional to it. Your opinion is a product of your playstyle. > > 2. I have many of the top competitive tankers on the leaderboards on my friends list (PS4). If you search for score by tanks you will find many of them have thousands of kills in the Valentine SPAA. It is a very popular choice, especially for farming infantry with the case rounds. Breakthrough Hamada is the best map for them followed by breakthrough or conquest Aerodrome. A friend of mine can even break 100 kills in conquest, yet alone Breakthrough where you can achieve 100 kills in a single sector. My best in the first sector was around 85 but I don’t play Breakthrough much, I’m sure if I played the Valentine SPAA every day loading in on the same maps as many people on the leaderboards do it’d be quite simple, and yes achievable every day unless you get really unlucky with server balance, game duration, etc. Either way it’s not the main point to this thread, considering you were discussing damage output against planes, of which you argued the Wirbelwind is the perfect example of balance, despite it having now been confirmed broken. > > Incorrect. > > My hypothesis comes from study of others in game along with my own experiences. Along with the fact that EVERY SINGLE GAME I enter into that has planes, the planes end up dominating with outrageous scores. This has zero to do with me or my skill. You keep deflecting back to me playing because you cant win the argument, so you keep resorting to your tired attacks. > > Its simple jr, when planes are dominating more than tanks or even infantry. When a single pilot has so much control that they turn the outcome of the game, the game is blatantly unbalanced and will turn people off. > > Lets do some simple math. ZERO customers = ZERO dollars. No game can be balanced to your desire of elite only game play. > > You keep missing the point. Your little clique of friends are the LAST people the devs should be listening to and balancing for. Your little clique cant pay the bills, the masses can. > > I already told you, the video was made to by fun/funny. And regardless of whether the flakpanzer is broken or not does not change the fact that EVEN in its broken state, planes STILL dominate maps. > > Which means the devs have some serious nerfing to do for planes. If the game stays in its current assault/pilot meta, you can bet your bottom dollar people will leave, heck they already are. This game is a sinking ship because people like you push the devs for balance and you have ZERO clue what it means to balance a game. How could I possibly be losing the argument when I even proved that your prime example for balance (the Wirbelwind) was confirmed bugged by the developers despite your insistence otherwise. As for pilots dominating constantly, it’s not only pilots getting 80+ kills in Breakthrough servers (and again Breakthrough is notoriously spammy for bombers due to high player density on objectives). As I also explained there are many top pilots that spend their entire playing sessions loading in to specific maps, and yes Breakthrough Hamada is at the top of that list. It is for me too, because if I am on the British side I can get hundreds of kills, permitting that the game goes on long enough (it rarely does). Your basic argument then is that we should start balancing things in game to the lowest common denominator, basically the basic scrub. This is no way to balance SPAAs, or AA. This is as stupid an argument as balancing something in game to the no.1 player in the world for that given class, an argument I have NOT explicitly made, so I dispute the accusation. You started off by denying that your inability to kill the Stuka could possibly be partly dependent on your skill level, positioning, etc. And now you have evolved your position into some democratic crusade seeking balance for the masses and therefore dollars for EA. Yeah duh the the development team’s top priority is player retention, but there are simply so few players that want to play SPAA or sit in spawn all game long on an AA that your own argument is relatively redundant by its own mass criteria. As I said before many features in this game rely on other skilled players to counter skilled players. I personally hate bombers, honestly I would be happy if they weren’t in the game, but I would say that as they often counter me, therefore I take it upon myself to often counter them. If nobody in your server is bothering to do so, either do so yourself, or find another server. The SPAA IS capable, it’s you that’s seemingly incapable of killing planes with it, nor do you seem interested in actually learning how to improve sufficiently in order to combat pilots that have inevitably practiced and died many times learning what not to do if they want to stay alive. You don’t simply get an easy mode because pilots hurt your feelings and make you rage to the point you record your gameplay and have to come and broadcast to public forums simply how poor a player you are, rather than how underpowered they are. For someone that calls themselves a designer, you aren’t very forensic, or willing to accept constructive criticism considering how many different people have pointed out flaws in your gameplay/ positioning, etc. Still you prefer to deflect to EA share value, as if people out there really want an unbalanced game, and as if there aren’t plenty casuals that want to play planes every now and then without getting instashredded by a sweaty nerd sat in spawn on an AA all game long. ---
**Author:** ![WinterWarhurst](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/winterwarhurst/32/107315_2.png) [@WinterWarhurst](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/WinterWarhurst)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 3:37pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/valentine-maa-needs-love/106512/62 "2019-02-08T15:37:00Z")
> [@Shrediron](#): > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > [@DingoKillr](#): > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > [@Shrediron](#): > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > As a tanker main I hate getting one shot by bombers as much, if not more, than anyone. I actually think you are being far more reasonable in your response to me here, and inevitably data will be what devs look at to inform their opinion. > > > > > > > > > > I never felt I was being unreasonable. I have not changed my stance on anything. The difference is that I had to spell it out, but frankly I should not have had to…because to me its just basic 101. > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > That said even by your own 2-3 second estimation the Wirbelwind is bugged with double blast damage as its TTK is around half this. > > > > > > > > > > But as I stated, even IF it is bugged and the damage output is not intended, which based on how weak the valentine is to me (regardless of what gun) would seem to be the case. My fear is seeing the FlakP damage being lowered to pre 2nd patch when ALL AA was useless. I personally think pre jan patch was perfect…but pilots complained. > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > I want AA and SPAA to be effective against bombers and fighters alike, however I, and many others, will simply not back down from our belief that it should require a high degree of skill to kill a highly skilled pilot or tanker, whether they are in a bomber, a fighter, an SPAA or a tank. > > > > > > > > > > I disagree. Frankly its your bias/pride speaking (imo), not balance speaking. You must understand, I give ZERO cares about K/D ratio, and frankly all K/D does is hurt game play and create a toxic environment where one bro has to brag about how amazing he is to the other bro. It also pushes people to kill more than do the objective. Same thing in happens in any score kept game where the score is based on kills. The fundamental issue is that most of the AA in game is stationary. The only skill threshold in SAA is the players ability to track the plane and throttle the fire. In order to balance SAA around the “skill capped” in planes means you need “skill capped” SAA players, which pretty much means perfect accuracy. The issue is that netcode/latency/ping ALONE will not allow for this to happen, so there has to be a buffer. You can’t not take all reward from the non-elite player base (the majority) because when people lose more often than they win, they will find something else to do. If an AA player can not kill the plane regardless of how much they try and the pilot is brazen and nose diving directly at the AA, its broken. Period. > > > > > > > > > > And yes I understand that this goes both ways where the pilots need to win as well, but that is why I am arguing these points because the pilots are not the ones losing right now. I can go into most gamed with planes and find reasonable pilots owning the entire map, EVEN with flakpanzers around. > > > > > > > > > > Have you ever been frustrated in game because you could not get something done, or something like that happens to me where I get 5 instant deaths in a row simply when spawning REGARDLESS of where I spawn? I get fed up and look for something else to do. The last thing a business wants is their customer being frustrated with their product which will make the customer look for something else. In this case its entertainment. EA DICE right now CAN NOT AFFORD to lose players from BFV because of bad design/decisions that drive the customer to another form of entertainment. Simply put, the game design should not drive customers away to the competition. > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > Very often I load in to servers where the balance is not there, where only low level players man the AAs and can be defeated easily, but I also load into servers where top class players are say on Twisted Steel in Wirbelwinds, Ju-88s & Stukas and it’s simply miserable to play vehicles on the other team. In fact I often set myself the challenge to dismantle their air superiority, but also I often squad up because coordinated opposition requires a coordinated response. This game is complex, as you well know. > > > > > > > > > > Server balance in this game is non-existent, at least by my observation. When I make a funny or a gripe on forums (like this thread) its not based on one or two or three or even 10 experiences. Its based on something I have observed that happens time and time and time and time and time and time again. I then check to see if others observe the same issues. This helps weed out skill, computer, internet, etc if the sample size is large (which admittedly is not as large as I would like). > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > Should there be V-1s or 1000kg bombs that one hit kill tanks? Personally I would be better off without them, I can at least agree with you here to some degree, yet they exist, and as such you must adapt your gameplay style or die. If you are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes you can beat a bomber or Stuka. If they are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes they will beat you. > > > > > > > > > > I am fine with V-1’s, they are usually end game clutch tools with limited use. My issue is the exploitation of those mechanics by squads who artificially inflate their score to get the V-1 early, its cheating and circumvents the design goals. > > > > > > > > > > I disagree with the comment about being smart and beating stuka/bomber. Their ability to navigate around the AA is much more easily done than the AA’s inability to navigate or the MAA’s slower ability to navigate. For example. That short clip I posted earlier happened becasue I was on high ground, the plane flew low behind our base, pulled up and 1 shot me. I heard him for about 1.7 seconds before he killed me. He must have flown WIDE around the map to ensure I did not see him. There is no escaping that. I could go hide in a gully, but we know that does not work, but neither does being high up. The issue is that not only could I not escape that, I could also not shoot him down before he was out of range/LOS of my guns…the valentine overheats FAST and even the slow gun was useless. Against a good pilot like him with his 75/85 kills I have no options. That is why I made the video. That was not a one off occurrence and not just happening to me. I watch others try to take out planes and some of the AA in game simply wont do it. > > > > > > > > > > As I stated earlier, no player should have that much consistent control over the playfield, and even Flakpanzers in their allegedly broken state, do not have the power to control the entire playfield like the planes can. > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > Is the Valentine SPAA as useless on Hamada Breakthrough as you claim in your screenshot? I’ve gotten 111 kills in the first two sectors alone in one, and killed all their air, and that’s before it was buffed. I have at least 5 people on my friends list who do better than I do in the Valentine SPAA, and they all agree it’s OP, particularly against infantry. Against planes you have a low ROF but a high damage output. You have to be very accurate, and have great leading and tracking abilities, as well as placement with the terrain to escape to cover when the bombers with their 1000KG come looking to troll you. Again, I would rather they didn’t have these bomb, but they do, so adapt or die. > > > > > > > > > > Please post videos because I have an extremely hard time being convinced that they are as strong right now as you or your friends claim. Regardless of how I spec mine out, I simply do junk damage to bombers. Even fighters escape before I can kill them due to their speed. I fully admit I am the worst player of any game any genre of all time, the literal last place player in the world. THAT being said, your observations do not line up with the numbers (the ones I have collected at least). I see planes dominating left and right wiht extremely high kill counts. MAA, LUCKY to get 10 kills in a match (unless its the flakpanzer), and AA…LOL only if you are finishing off what someone else already started. > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > As for planes, or tanks, dominating… Well Breakthrough is notorious for this because you have such a high player density. Combine this with spotting, etc. And it’s going to be intense. Sometimes you load into a server where nobody is interested in taking a fighter up to maintain air superiority and keep bombers grounded. I love playing this role for my fellow squad mates and team. I, much like you, hate bombers, unless they’re in my squad and I’m protecting them. > > > > > > > > > > True. I see the same issues on Conquest as well. I dont see it on Panzerstorm, but I dont see anyone dominating Panzerstorm. The map size alone helps with balance. > > > > > > > > > > > [@WinterWarhurst](#): > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, nice to be more civil, I hope you can at the very least appreciate my perspective. > > > > > > > > > > I totally get your perspective. I just feel the discussion is not over until all questions have been asked and are answered and everyone is on the same playing field. I find it extremely infuriating to see design decisions being done by trial and error( costing time and money) when a strong group brainstorming session can weed out most issues beforehand saving time and money. > > > > > > > > Flakpanzer confirmed bugged by devs, and will be patched in next update: > > > > > > > > [https://twitter.com/JaqubAjmal/status/1093435582708137985](https://twitter.com/JaqubAjmal/status/1093435582708137985) > > > > > > > > As for the rest, I don’t know what to say other than what I have said before. To beat top pilots you need to practice, you need to outsmart them, you need to use the proper counters and tactics available to you. I have friends that go on 100+ Valentine SPAA streaks every day. It is possible, but you simply, respectfully, need to adapt your gameplay style or you will be rightly punished. Currently AA is powerful and capable in the right hands, in the right circumstances. > > > > > > > > Do I think bombers are perfectly balanced? Nope. It’s one of the hardest things to balance in the game. And as a tanker it is perhaps one of my top 3 threats, yet I rarely get bombed, yet alone one hit kill bombed, and when I do, I get mad, but mad at myself because I should have been more aware, I should have reacted accordingly, and that ultimately falls on me. > > > > > > I have friends that go 200+ in Fighters everyday if they can do any one can right, I think that is a good reason AA should be more powerful. > > > > > > No, instead we are going back to rounds where pilots destroy every ground unit, never die and ground have no counter. Yet you have the gall to tell others to get good, while pilots now only need to worry about other pilots. > > > > Ok I appreciate your sarcasm, but seriously consider what you’re actually arguing here, because if your friends were really going 200+ in fighters every day I don’t think you’d suggest that they need some love, as this thread does suggest of the Valentine SPAA. > > > > If you play breakthrough Hamada there is a high possibility you run into stat padding bomber or fighter nerds, who literally spend their entire game sessions loading in to Devestation, waiting for Hamada to start, then spend the entire game in a bomber, then rinse-repeat. I know many of the top pilots on the leaderboards, including the No. 1 who I squad up with frequently. They all load in on certain maps and play one part of the rotation, therefore you have a high likelihood of running in to such players on these maps. I can tell you that in these discords (I am in the pilot platoon that the No.1 guy is), they all feel AA is a serious threat, in fact so much so that they’ve changed the planes they fly in to counter AA. In fact many of them have stopped straffing even stationary AA altogether with their MGs because it’s too risky in case the user has decent aim. As a result they have resorted to rockets as a counter, foregoing other upgrades. As I said before, to beat a highly skilled player, regardless of what class they play, it typically requires a high degree of skill. This is surely fair? I know that I can kill these pilots in an SPAA, but I also know that they are masters at taking out AA. I can not expect to beat them every time, nor can I expect it to be easy. You need to play smart to beat smart pilots. You need to pick your counters carefully, and know when to engage, and when not to. Do they have air superiority? Are you 1 v 3 against multiple bombers & close air support, etc. These factors are so complicated. > > His point went right over your head…why? Because your POV is all about “WHAT IS GOOD FOR ME”, not “WHAT IS GOOD FOR THE GAME”. > > If my friends were bragging about going 200+ in fighters, I would call for the planes to be tuned down to bring them inline with the rest of the game. Its not balanced, its not fun being on the receiving end. > > This is simple math. > Who do the devs upset more. The small % of whiny pilots who EXPECT to rule the skies with 85+ kills in any given round? Or the mass # of people who are sick of dying out of nowhere and sick of plane dominance? > > I’ll clue you in. Unless you are selling niche boutique items like Panerai, Pass Labs, or Spyker, then you have no business catering to the elite only. Games run and thrive by catering to the masses. More people are sick of plane dominance than anything else in game. What?! I think you completely misread what I said. This guy was joking about 200+ kills, I think you know that right? And I said the same thing as you, I said I wouldn’t ask for them to receive some love… How are we even disagreeing here?! 85+ kills doesn’t mean they’re dominating when in breakthrough infantry always get that many kills, and typically with higher scores, it’s breakthrough, people break 100 because games can go on for so long and player density is high. Also as I said before there are many pilot mains that specifically load in on specific maps, and then rejoin to play those maps when they are done. I never once disputed that player retention isn’t a no. 1 priority for devs. I did however dispute that it is in their balance philosophy to balance things around your criteria, which I have been proved CORRECT about with the simple fact your example of perfect balance (Wirbelwind) was confirmed to be bugged by them. In fact it is No. 3 on their priority list to be fixed next patch: “The Flakpanzer AA is too powerful against aircraft”. This is in their own words, and on their quality of life tracker which contains only the highest priority issues. I am sorry but you are wrong, and that’s a fact, not an opinion, no matter how much you dislike my attitude towards your opinion. [Previous page](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/valentine-maa-needs-love/106512.md?page=3)