# Why is the Autoloading 8.25 Extended used way more than the Chauchat? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [August 12, 2018, 6:15am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/why-is-the-autoloading-8-25-extended-used-way-more-than-the-chauchat/103444 "2018-08-12T06:15:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![V2Face](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/v2face/32/103961_2.png) [@V2Face](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/V2Face)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/why-is-the-autoloading-8-25-extended-used-way-more-than-the-chauchat/103444/41 "2018-08-15T15:20:00Z")
Why are you comparing apples and milkshakes? That’s like comparing the M1903 and the Hellriegel. Two classes, two different weapons and playstyles. The Chauchat is hit and move and can be good for laying down fire with the bipod when you have time to set up. The Autoloading extended is run and gun spam as fast you can type of weapon good for close to mid range, single fire weapon. I get gunned down by way more people as the automat then the Autoloading and the Lewis gun more then the Chauchat. Skilled weapons usually take a back seat to user friendly types. ---
**Author:** ![trip1ex](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@trip1ex](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/trip1ex)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/why-is-the-autoloading-8-25-extended-used-way-more-than-the-chauchat/103444/42 "2018-08-15T15:44:00Z")
> [@lessthanjake123](#): > > > [@trip1ex](#): > > > > medic guns in general more accurate and “quicker.” and I think their bullets go farther as far as the number of enemies you can kill with the same sized mag. > > > > I think my feeling using the Chauchat was it can be a stretch to kill more than 2 guys with it before you have to reload. I used it a lot before. YOu might waste a few bullets getting started and then waste a few more after the guy drops before you stop. AT this point you may or may not have enough comfortable room for another kill. Obviously if you’re bipoded you can manage ammo a bit better. > > > > Meanwhile the medic gun I use now…I feel like i can kill 3-4 guys before reloading and it’s only got 21 bullets. > > > > i probably used the auto extended a bit early on but can’t recall if you can expect something similar as the medic gun i described. > > The obvious retort to this is that the Chauchat objectively can kill more people with one clip than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended can. If all your shots it, the Chauchat could get 6.7 kills within 20 meters, compared to 5.3 kills for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended. The Chauchat could get 5 kills between 20 and 38 meters, compared to 4 kills for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended. And the Chauchat could get 5 kills past 38 meters, compared to 3.2 kills for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended. > > Of course, I gather that part of your point may be that the LMG spread model results in more bullets being wasted to get a kill. There’s certainly some validity to that, though the Chauchat is basically strictly more accurate if you are shooting while moving in ADS, regardless of the spread model, and its spread increase in general isn’t very high for an LMG. One other point might be that the one tends to waste more bullets with a fully-automatic weapon. That’s definitely true at least from my perspective. But I personally still feel like I can get more kills per magazine with the Chauchat than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended, especially at engagement distances where the Autoloading 8 is a 5-shot kill. In contrast, I feel like I can get more kills per magazine with the M1907 SL than the Chauchat, though, but the difference isn’t very big IMO. What the spreadsheet says is possible and what actually happens in game are 2 different things. 🙂 No way are you coming close to getting 6.7 kills per mag with the Chauchat. AS I said you waste bullets a lot more with the typical Support weapon than with a medic rifle. Medic rifles are more accurate. Medic rifles also handle better. ---
**Author:** ![VBALL\_MVP](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/vball_mvp/32/103977_2.png) [@VBALL\_MVP](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/VBALL_MVP)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/why-is-the-autoloading-8-25-extended-used-way-more-than-the-chauchat/103444/43 "2018-08-15T16:34:00Z")
> [@trip1ex](#): > > > [@lessthanjake123](#): > > > > > [@trip1ex](#): > > > > > > medic guns in general more accurate and “quicker.” and I think their bullets go farther as far as the number of enemies you can kill with the same sized mag. > > > > > > I think my feeling using the Chauchat was it can be a stretch to kill more than 2 guys with it before you have to reload. I used it a lot before. YOu might waste a few bullets getting started and then waste a few more after the guy drops before you stop. AT this point you may or may not have enough comfortable room for another kill. Obviously if you’re bipoded you can manage ammo a bit better. > > > > > > Meanwhile the medic gun I use now…I feel like i can kill 3-4 guys before reloading and it’s only got 21 bullets. > > > > > > i probably used the auto extended a bit early on but can’t recall if you can expect something similar as the medic gun i described. > > > > The obvious retort to this is that the Chauchat objectively can kill more people with one clip than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended can. If all your shots it, the Chauchat could get 6.7 kills within 20 meters, compared to 5.3 kills for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended. The Chauchat could get 5 kills between 20 and 38 meters, compared to 4 kills for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended. And the Chauchat could get 5 kills past 38 meters, compared to 3.2 kills for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended. > > > > Of course, I gather that part of your point may be that the LMG spread model results in more bullets being wasted to get a kill. There’s certainly some validity to that, though the Chauchat is basically strictly more accurate if you are shooting while moving in ADS, regardless of the spread model, and its spread increase in general isn’t very high for an LMG. One other point might be that the one tends to waste more bullets with a fully-automatic weapon. That’s definitely true at least from my perspective. But I personally still feel like I can get more kills per magazine with the Chauchat than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended, especially at engagement distances where the Autoloading 8 is a 5-shot kill. In contrast, I feel like I can get more kills per magazine with the M1907 SL than the Chauchat, though, but the difference isn’t very big IMO. > > What the spreadsheet says is possible and what actually happens in game are 2 different things. 🙂 > > No way are you coming close to getting 6.7 kills per mag with the Chauchat. > > AS I said you waste bullets a lot more with the typical Support weapon than with a medic rifle. Medic rifles are more accurate. Medic rifles also handle better. Which is what I stated before with the random bullet deviation. Lot worse on lmgs…they are made to be more accurate the longer you shoot. The random spread is horrendous on them, unless you bipod up. Someone mentioned before about tap fire…not effective in BF1 lmgs. ---
**Author:** ![lessthanjake123](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/73ab20/32.png) [@lessthanjake123](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/lessthanjake123)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/why-is-the-autoloading-8-25-extended-used-way-more-than-the-chauchat/103444/44 "2018-08-16T01:39:00Z")
> [@trip1ex](#): > > > [@lessthanjake123](#): > > > > > [@trip1ex](#): > > > > > > medic guns in general more accurate and “quicker.” and I think their bullets go farther as far as the number of enemies you can kill with the same sized mag. > > > > > > I think my feeling using the Chauchat was it can be a stretch to kill more than 2 guys with it before you have to reload. I used it a lot before. YOu might waste a few bullets getting started and then waste a few more after the guy drops before you stop. AT this point you may or may not have enough comfortable room for another kill. Obviously if you’re bipoded you can manage ammo a bit better. > > > > > > Meanwhile the medic gun I use now…I feel like i can kill 3-4 guys before reloading and it’s only got 21 bullets. > > > > > > i probably used the auto extended a bit early on but can’t recall if you can expect something similar as the medic gun i described. > > > > The obvious retort to this is that the Chauchat objectively can kill more people with one clip than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended can. If all your shots it, the Chauchat could get 6.7 kills within 20 meters, compared to 5.3 kills for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended. The Chauchat could get 5 kills between 20 and 38 meters, compared to 4 kills for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended. And the Chauchat could get 5 kills past 38 meters, compared to 3.2 kills for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended. > > > > Of course, I gather that part of your point may be that the LMG spread model results in more bullets being wasted to get a kill. There’s certainly some validity to that, though the Chauchat is basically strictly more accurate if you are shooting while moving in ADS, regardless of the spread model, and its spread increase in general isn’t very high for an LMG. One other point might be that the one tends to waste more bullets with a fully-automatic weapon. That’s definitely true at least from my perspective. But I personally still feel like I can get more kills per magazine with the Chauchat than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended, especially at engagement distances where the Autoloading 8 is a 5-shot kill. In contrast, I feel like I can get more kills per magazine with the M1907 SL than the Chauchat, though, but the difference isn’t very big IMO. > > What the spreadsheet says is possible and what actually happens in game are 2 different things. 🙂 > > No way are you coming close to getting 6.7 kills per mag with the Chauchat. > > AS I said you waste bullets a lot more with the typical Support weapon than with a medic rifle. Medic rifles are more accurate. Medic rifles also handle better. Yeah, obviously you will virtually never get the maximum number of kills from a magazine. And my second paragraph acknowledges that obvious fact. But that doesn’t mean those numbers aren’t instructive. While you may miss shots due to bad aim or due to spread, the gun with the higher possible number of kills per magazine is likely to also be the gun with the highest actual kills per magazine as well. (That can break down if one gun has a super high rate of fire—such as the Burton, Automatico, etc., since with those guns you can waste a ton of bullets with just a moment of bad aim, but here both guns have the same rate of fire so that’s not at issue). The argument against this would be that the Chauchat is an LMG and LMGs waste bullets on bad spread shots. There’s some validity to that, but it’s a much bigger issue for other LMGs. The Chauchat’s first shot spread multiplier is tied for the lowest of all LMGs. So its max spread is actually not super high and it gets back to its minimum spread very quickly. And its base ADS spread while moving is so low that even the shot with the most spread actually is quite low (there are quite a lot of guns in this game, including many in the Support class, that have a minimum spread while moving in ADS that is higher than the Chauchat’s highest spread on that second shot while ADS and moving). In other words, you may be right that you waste bullets a lot more “with the typical Support weapon” than with a medic rifle. But the Chauchat is not a typical Support weapon. Its max spread values are abnormally low and it gets back to its minimum spread abnormally quickly. Meanwhile, its low rate of fire compared to other supports means you don’t waste as many bullets when you’re aiming off target. So it’s a bit wrong to say the Chauchat’s magazine size is bad because most LMGs are inaccurate bullet hoses, when the Chauchat is simply not like that. Look at the calculations I’ve already shown on this thread. If you are ADS and moving, there is literally no number of bullets you could shoot in which there’s not more total spread over those shots on the Autoloading 8.25 Extended than there is on the Chauchat. The Chauchat is objectively a substantially more accurate gun than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended when ADS and moving. And, even when stationary in ADS, if firing at the max fire rate, the Chauchat has less total spread (defined by adding together the spread values of all the shots taken) than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended unless you’re taking only 5 shots or fewer. Obviously, that does happen, but these guns are 4 shot kills (and 5 for the Autoloading 8.25 past a certain point) outside of close range. So you’d have to be extremely accurate or come across a lot of injured enemies for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended to consistently have less total spread if you’re shooting at max RPM while stationary in ADS. The Chauchat is simply not some inaccurate bullet hose in comparison to the Autoloading 8.25 Extended. ---
**Author:** ![lessthanjake123](https://battlefieldforum.co/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/73ab20/32.png) [@lessthanjake123](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/lessthanjake123)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 2:34am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/why-is-the-autoloading-8-25-extended-used-way-more-than-the-chauchat/103444/45 "2018-08-16T02:34:00Z")
> [@VBALL\_MVP](#): > > > [@trip1ex](#): > > > > > [@lessthanjake123](#): > > > > > > > [@trip1ex](#): > > > > > > > > medic guns in general more accurate and “quicker.” and I think their bullets go farther as far as the number of enemies you can kill with the same sized mag. > > > > > > > > I think my feeling using the Chauchat was it can be a stretch to kill more than 2 guys with it before you have to reload. I used it a lot before. YOu might waste a few bullets getting started and then waste a few more after the guy drops before you stop. AT this point you may or may not have enough comfortable room for another kill. Obviously if you’re bipoded you can manage ammo a bit better. > > > > > > > > Meanwhile the medic gun I use now…I feel like i can kill 3-4 guys before reloading and it’s only got 21 bullets. > > > > > > > > i probably used the auto extended a bit early on but can’t recall if you can expect something similar as the medic gun i described. > > > > > > The obvious retort to this is that the Chauchat objectively can kill more people with one clip than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended can. If all your shots it, the Chauchat could get 6.7 kills within 20 meters, compared to 5.3 kills for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended. The Chauchat could get 5 kills between 20 and 38 meters, compared to 4 kills for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended. And the Chauchat could get 5 kills past 38 meters, compared to 3.2 kills for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended. > > > > > > Of course, I gather that part of your point may be that the LMG spread model results in more bullets being wasted to get a kill. There’s certainly some validity to that, though the Chauchat is basically strictly more accurate if you are shooting while moving in ADS, regardless of the spread model, and its spread increase in general isn’t very high for an LMG. One other point might be that the one tends to waste more bullets with a fully-automatic weapon. That’s definitely true at least from my perspective. But I personally still feel like I can get more kills per magazine with the Chauchat than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended, especially at engagement distances where the Autoloading 8 is a 5-shot kill. In contrast, I feel like I can get more kills per magazine with the M1907 SL than the Chauchat, though, but the difference isn’t very big IMO. > > > > What the spreadsheet says is possible and what actually happens in game are 2 different things. 🙂 > > > > No way are you coming close to getting 6.7 kills per mag with the Chauchat. > > > > AS I said you waste bullets a lot more with the typical Support weapon than with a medic rifle. Medic rifles are more accurate. Medic rifles also handle better. > > Which is what I stated before with the random bullet deviation. Lot worse on lmgs…they are made to be more accurate the longer you shoot. The random spread is horrendous on them, unless you bipod up. > > Someone mentioned before about tap fire…not effective in BF1 lmgs. This is the type of thinking that makes people erroneously look past the Chauchat. The Chauchat doesn’t fit with the rules of other LMGs, and you should not blindly assume that it shares the negatives of other LMGs. **Unlike other LMGs, the Chauchat’s spread is not “horrendous,” and actually is probably a strength** The Chauchat’s random spread is simply NOT horrendous. As you know, on LMGs, the second shot has the worst spread, and then it goes down from there. So let’s look at the Chauchat’s spread for those highest-spread shots, and evaluate whether or not it is “horrendous.” **If you are ADS and moving, the Chauchat’s spread on its second shot is just 0.984. That is lower than a lot of guns’ minimum possible spread while ADS and moving. For instance, it is literally impossible for the iron-sights versions of the Mondragon, the Selbstlader 1916, the RSC 1917, the Farquhar-Hill, the Howell, or the General Liu (in Medic-rifle mode) to shoot a single shot while ADS and moving that would have spread that low, because their minimum ADS spread while moving are all above 1.0. In other words, the Chauchat’s maximum spread while ADS and moving is lower than many Medic guns’ minimum spread while ADS and moving. The Chauchat is objectively an incredibly accurate ADS-while-moving weapon, with accuracy that I believe is superior to every single Medic weapon in the game in that scenario.** If you are ADS and stationary, then the Chauchat’s spread on its second shot is 0.664. Compared to Medic guns, this is essentially going to be the same as virtually all of their 6th shots (for instance, it is slightly lower than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended’s 6th shot). And obviously it goes down from there. Personally, I wouldn’t say Medic guns have “horrendous” spread on their 6th shot while stationary in ADS, though obviously this is less obviously in the Chauchat’s favor than the ADS-while-moving stats above. Relatedly, as I’ve demonstrated repeatedly on this thread, when stationary in ADS, the Chauchat has less total spread over the course of 6 or more shots than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended does. So unless you’ve got consistently fantastic aim or are consistently running into injured enemies, you’re likely to run into a ton—probably even a majority—of occasions in which the Chauchat will have less total spread than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended even while stationary in ADS. **Unlike other LMGs, the Chauchat CAN be effective with tap firing** You also blindly assume the Chauchat cannot be effective with tap firing, simply because other LMGs aren’t good at it. But the Chauchat is actually an exception to this general rule, for two big reasons: (1) it has an extremely high spread decrease stat, and (2) it has a higher damage-per-shot than the rest of the Support weapons. The problem for LMGs in terms of tap firing is two-fold. First and foremost, they gain massive amounts of spread from their first shot, so if you tap fire, you’ll accumulate spread really quickly. Second, they have relatively high bullets-to-kill and obviously the more bullets it takes the kill the less effective tap firing will be. But the Chauchat Low Weight has substantially higher spread decrease than almost every single LMG in the game. The only exceptions are the Lewis Gun Low Weight and the Huot Low Weight. Those three LMGs are unique in that their spread decrease is so massive that they need only wait 0.033 extra seconds between shots to completely eliminate all spread increase. This means that these three LMGs can actually tap fire at close to their maximum firing rate without increasing their spread. However, depending on the distance, the Chauchat can kill in 1 or 2 fewer bullets than those other two weapons, so I think it’s easily the best tap-fire weapon out of the three. The upshot is this. The Chauchat can tap fire at 299 RPM without having any spread increase at all. This is the same rate of fire as the max fire rate of guns like the Cei-Rigotti and the M1907 SL (and those guns would need to fire slower than that to eliminate all spread). Of course, the Chauchat goes up to a 4 shot kill sooner than those guns do, so those guns will be able to tap fire more effectively than the Chauchat at certain mid-range distances. But, for instance, within 20 meters and from 55 meters onwards, the Chauchat is capable of being arguably a better tap-fire weapon than the Cei-Rigotti (both have the same bullets to kill, but the Chauchat can fire at the Cei-Rigotti’s max fire rate without suffering any spread increase). Similarly, within 20 meters and from 39-54 meters, the Chauchat is capable of being arguably a better tap-fire weapon than the M1907 SL, and it is definitely better at tap firing from 55 meters onward (since the M1907 SL becomes a 5 shot kill at that range). So, is the Chauchat the best tap fire weapon in the game? No. But it can compete with Medic weapons at tap firing at many distances, and even in those mid-range distances where it requires an extra bullet, tap-firing is viable. ---
**Author:** ![The\_BERG\_366](https://battlefieldforum.co/user_avatar/battlefieldforum.co/the_berg_366/32/101051_2.png) [@The\_BERG\_366](https://battlefieldforum.co/u/The_BERG_366)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 6:23am UTC](https://battlefieldforum.co/t/why-is-the-autoloading-8-25-extended-used-way-more-than-the-chauchat/103444/46 "2018-08-16T06:23:00Z")
> [@lessthanjake123](#): > > > [@The\_BERG\_366](#): > > > > > [@lessthanjake123](#): > > > > > > > [@The\_BERG\_366](#): > > > > > > > > @lessthanjake123 > > > > I wanna explain to you a few things that I saw u post that don’t quite work and that might be the answer to your question. First off of course the biggest factors are the different classes and one of the guns being a dlc weapon while the other one isn’t. however that doesn’t tell the whole story as the chauchat should still see more use if those where the only factors. > > > > > > > > first odd two things I wanna mention: > > > > > > > > 1. the “base spread while moving” value is kind of linearily dependent to the movement speed of a player while the values that u can see on symthic is the value for maximum movement speed (this is the maximum movement speed while not running so it refers to the speed your soldier has when u simoly push your left stick forward). now when u side starve or whatevee while adsed your movement speed is significantly lower. in bf4 sidestraving speed whole adsed with non-bullpup weapons was less than 50% of the maximum speed. now I don’t know about the values in this game but based on my personal experience I wouldnt expect it to be more than 50% of the maximum speed. therefore basespread while moving in most actual in game scenarios is actually a lot lower than the value on symthic which is the one u used for your calculations. the real value is between the min spread while standing still and the min spread value while moving on symthic where the value is changing linearly to the movement speed. > > > > > > > > 2. u say that while shooting at 324 rpm the chauchat won’t add any additional spread. Well yeah while standing still thst is true. however this value drops down to about 247rpm when moving. this is a number that will easily be exceeded in game in more hectic situations. and as the gun has such a high spread decrease it should be clear what happens if you exceed the theoretical max firerate: the spread goes out of the roof really quickly. > > > > > > > > now why is the 8.25 so much more popular. additionally to the reasons mentioned in the beginning 1. shows us that the spread values of the 8.25 while moving compared to the chauchat are actually absolutely and more importantly also relatively better than how u described them. furtherly tapfiring with the chauchat is not as effective in actual in game scenarios as it might look, showed in 2. finally the first few shots, especially with low rpm guns, are the most important ones. u can’t afford to miss one of your first 3 shots with a chauchat as it essentially increases your ttk by 50%. and giving the nature of the chauchats spread it is clear why its not very reliable on the first few shots. pair this with the slow ads time and the fact that it was a really bad weapon at one point and you have your reason why. > > > > > > On the first point, I assume you are saying that if you are strafing your movement speed is lower than base ADS movement speed, and therefore your base spread is lower than Symthic’s reported base spread while ADS and moving stat? If so, I’ve not heard of that but it’s certainly possible you’re right. If that were the case, though, the Chauchat is still very likely not worse than the Autoloading 8 on this. For instance, let’s say the actual base spread value while strafing is exactly halfway between the standstill base ADS spread and Symthic’s reported ADS spread while moving. In that case, base spread for the Chauchat would be 0.4, while it would be 0.5 for the Autoloading 8 Extended. I won’t show all the calculations, but the upshot of this is that in this situation total spread (i.e. the spread of all shots added together) for the Chauchat is lower if you take 4 or more shots. Definitionally, this means that there must always be less overall spread for the Chauchat when either gun goes against a full-health enemy past 20 meters, since that’s a 4-shot kill for both guns. So the only situations where the Autoloading 8’s spread while strafing is superior are: (1) within 20 meters where every one of your shots hits the enemy—if even one shot misses then the Chauchat ends up better, or (2) at any distance against an injured enemy in which you specifically get the kill by using exactly 2 or 3 bullets. Now, I’m not saying those scenarios never happen, but you basically need 100% perfect aim while strafing for the Autoloading 8 Extended to be better here, and I really don’t think that’d typically be the case even for the very best players (unless of course you’re at very close quarters, but in that case these spread values probably don’t matter). So I still think the Chauchat’s ADS-while-moving spread model is better, though if you’re right about this then it’s certainly less clear cut in the Chauchat’s favor. > > > > > > On your second point, I don’t think that’s true at all. There are indeed two different spread increase per shot stats for the Chauchat. But it’s simply spread increase per shot while ADSed and spread increase per shot while hip firing. In other words, the Chauchat (or any other gun for that matter) does not have two different spread increase stats for ADS standing still and ADS while moving. So I do not think moving has any effect on the rate of fire the Chauchat can have without any spread increase. It’s also worth noting that, while spread increase per shot is higher while hip firing, the Chauchat’s spread decrease while hip firing is proportionally higher as well, such that the rate of fire you can shoot at without any spread increase is exactly the same while ADSed and while hip firing despite the higher spread increase per shot on the hip fire. > > > > no im saying that ads movement speed is slower than hip movement speed. and the value refers to max movement speed without running (aka moving forward while not adsed). > > u seem to underestimate versatility of guns. with something like a 8.25 u can just adjust your firerate to any situation to get the best balance between firerate and spread. the chauchat doesn’t offer that versatility. the only way it’s really better is if u compare spamfiring the 8.25 to full auto firing the chauchat at some range while already being adsed. why is that? let me explain what u misunderstood in point 2: > > honestly I made a mistake here as well, however it has nothing to do with spread increase but with spread decrease (my mistake was to misunderstand the first decrease value). let me explain: spread decrease only kicks in when the gun is ready to fire again. therefore the calculation for the maximum firerate while maintaining min spread for moving is the following: 1 / (60/359 + 0.9/12.75) \* 60 = 252.4 > > and for standing still: 1 / (359/60 + 0.424/12.75) \* 60 = 299.4 > > and again it is fatal to tap fire faster than these defined numbers. > > If that’s what you’re saying then you’re just almost certainly wrong. There are two spread-while-moving stats listed by Symthic (which takes it from the game’s code). There’s hip-fire spread while moving, and there’s ADS spread while moving. Obviously the hip fire spread while moving is always larger for every gun (for instance, for the Autoloading 8.25 the base spread is 2.50 while moving in hip fire, and 0.82 while moving in ADS). The stat listed as “ADS, moving” pretty obviously already takes into account that you are moving while ADSed rather than not ADSed. And that is the stat that I used to compare their spread while moving in ADS. Are you trying to argue that the “ADS, moving” stat I used is incorrect because it doesn’t account for the fact that you are moving in ADS??? That seems self-evidently incorrect. > > As for the spread decrease thing, you are right that I was a bit messed up with the calculation. But your calculations aren’t exactly right either. You are right about the second calculation. With a 359 RPM, that means you shoot a bullet every 0.16713 seconds (60/359). With a spread decrease of 12.75 and a first shot spread increase of 0.424, it would take 0.033255 seconds to eliminate spread (0.424/12.75). So if you want to shoot with no spread increase, you would need to tap fire every 0.200385 seconds (0.16713+0.033255). As you note, that yields a 299.4 RPM ((1/0.200385)\*60) in which the Chauchat can tap fire without spread increase. Remember, by the way, that that’s the max fire rate of the Cei-Rigotti and Selbstlader 1906. So the Chauchat Low Weight can tap fire at the max fire rate of those guns without any spread increase. > > In any event, two key points about this are worth making: > > 1. The 252.4 RPM number you gave does not exist. ADS spread increase is the same regardless of whether you are moving or not. And, while the Chauchat’s hip fire does indeed have a first-shot spread increase of 0.9, the weapon also has a spread decrease of 27 (not 12.75) while hip firing. The upshot is that the tap fire rate you can sustain while hip firing without spread is essentially the exact same as the above calculation for ADS (in mathematical terms, this is because 0.9/27 = 0.03333 is essentially the same as the 0.033255 listed above). Technically it’s 299.3 RPM instead of 299.4. > > 2. The Autoloading 8.25 Extended has that same exact RPM at which it can fire without spread increase while ADSed. This is because it has a spread decrease of only 3, and a first shot spread increase of 0.1. Since 0.1/3 also equals 0.03333, the Autoloading 8.25 Extended has to wait just as long between shots to eliminate its spread increase. It’s worth noting, though, that the Autoloading 8.25 Extended can actually shoot at 326 RPM without spread increase when it is in hip fire (because it only has 0.05 spread increase per shot when hip firing, which I hadn’t previously noticed). So there is a small advantage there. > > So, I was still essentially right that the two guns have the same rate of fire at which they can fire without any spread increase while ADSed. That rate of fire is just 299 RPM instead of 326 RPM. Though it is true that if you’re hip firing, then the Autoloading 8.25 Extended can hip fire a bit faster without spread. > > Your point about versatility is not off base, but I do question its importance. The benefit the Autoloading 8.25 Extended has here is basically that it will have less spread than the Chauchat if you are tap firing within that 299 RPM to 359 RPM window (since the Chauchat relies on a larger spread decrease stat to eliminate its much higher first shot spread increase, so less time for spread decrease affects it more). The difference isn’t that big if you’re quite close to 299 RPM, but gets worse and worse as you go up towards 359 RPM. So yes, the Autoloading 8.25 Extended does have the luxury of eliminating some of its spread while still shooting quite close to its max fire, while the Chauchat really can just shoot automatic fire at 359 RPM or tap fire at around 300 RPM or below, with little in between. The reason I question the importance of that, though, is that I just don’t think people tap fire at between 299 and 359 RPM very often. From my own experience and from watching others play, I feel like the choice is typically either to fire at that max rate in close quarters (in which case, the Chauchat would just be used with automatic fire), or to tap fire at a substantially lower fire rate at medium and long distances (again, remember, 299 RPM is the max fire rate of the Cei Rigotti and Selbstlader 1906. It’s fast). The recoil of both these guns is simply too strong to be able to tap fire faster than that at a decent distance. And forget about it if the enemy is moving or is only exposing a portion of their body. Meanwhile, at closer distances the spread differences aren’t important so you’re basically just hurting your TTK by not firing at the max fire rate. I guess there is hypothetically some very specific engagement distance in close-medium range in which you’d get some use out of tap firing between 299 RPM and 359 RPM against a stationary enemy. But I think that’s a very narrow situation. In those situations, the Chauchat would just be used with automatic fire. As a result, it would end up with marginally worse spread than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended (mostly just on shots 2-5; after that they’d basically be the same), but I think the relative ease of aiming and controlling an automatic weapon vs. a semi-automatic one would probably outweigh these relatively small spread differences for most people in those situations (especially on console). But again, it seems like that’d be a very rare situation. you’re right about point 1. i didn’t read the description and confused it with a another stat. so yeah we’re left with a 299 rpm. now to your first part: I don’t know why u keep saying things like that when u don’t have back up for it. regardless I’m surely not wrong at all. it’s in fact quite the opposite of what u said: it wouldnt make sense to define the value while already taking into account reduced movement speed. given that min spread is depending on movement speed the only logical way to build a dynamic system is to define the spread-values for fixed speed-values for each gun (fixed values such as max movement speed which is always constant for all guns). why go out of your way and define other values (for example values thst define spread while moving with max ads speed) just to then make an exception loop in your code to implement the required different calculation? if spread is dependent on speed than u will have to have speed defined at any point anyways in order to calculate spread so why define the values for hip and ads differently just to then be forced to translate the speed depending on whether the setting is ads or hip again to make the correct calculations? and what if the max movement speeds while ads’ed aren’t the same for all guns like it is in bf4? such a system wouldn’t be dynamic at all. symthic just takes the numbers in the code and lists them… there is no calculations thst go into the raw data they are representing. hence the numbers provided are the ones thst are somewhere directly defined in the code. and as I said what you assume wouldn’t make any sense to define in the code at all and developers generally build dynamic systems to make them easy to manage and to modify. regardless, here is the thread about this topic from the symthic forums that basically shows what I said: [http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield-4-technical-discussion/7374-moving-ads-spread-values/](http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield-4-technical-discussion/7374-moving-ads-spread-values/) “The reason I question the importance of that, though, is that I just don’t think people tap fire at between 299 and 359 RPM very often.” and this is your biggest mistake I think. 8.25 players do thst almost all the time and that’s exaclty the point. the 8.25 can adjust to the range easily. if you’re on mid-range you just tab a little slower than the max rof but faster than 299 cause u don’t need minimum spread… just low spread. so u maybe tab at like 320 rpm or whatever with a minimal interval of maybe 300 and max of 340. on the other hand with a chauchat 340 rpm makes your gun miss thst second shot for sure. therfore you gotta tab at something like 280 rpm maybe to not just randomly miss the shots that count the most. and that’s not all, the issue is u really can’t tab faster than that. with a 8.25 u can tab too fast and still get decent damage output while the chauchat just goes crazy. what it really boils down to is that the chauchat is harder to use while not offering any advantages really (except for being full auto). it’s harder to master but doesn’t perform better when mastered so why would people bother? 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