Why is the Autoloading 8.25 Extended used way more than the Chauchat?

Why are you comparing apples and milkshakes? That’s like comparing the M1903 and the Hellriegel. Two classes, two different weapons and playstyles. The Chauchat is hit and move and can be good for laying down fire with the bipod when you have time to set up. The Autoloading extended is run and gun spam as fast you can type of weapon good for close to mid range, single fire weapon. I get gunned down by way more people as the automat then the Autoloading and the Lewis gun more then the Chauchat. Skilled weapons usually take a back seat to user friendly types.

What the spreadsheet says is possible and what actually happens in game are 2 different things. :slight_smile:

No way are you coming close to getting 6.7 kills per mag with the Chauchat.

AS I said you waste bullets a lot more with the typical Support weapon than with a medic rifle. Medic rifles are more accurate. Medic rifles also handle better.

Which is what I stated before with the random bullet deviation. Lot worse on lmgs…they are made to be more accurate the longer you shoot. The random spread is horrendous on them, unless you bipod up.

Someone mentioned before about tap fire…not effective in BF1 lmgs.

Yeah, obviously you will virtually never get the maximum number of kills from a magazine. And my second paragraph acknowledges that obvious fact. But that doesn’t mean those numbers aren’t instructive. While you may miss shots due to bad aim or due to spread, the gun with the higher possible number of kills per magazine is likely to also be the gun with the highest actual kills per magazine as well. (That can break down if one gun has a super high rate of fire—such as the Burton, Automatico, etc., since with those guns you can waste a ton of bullets with just a moment of bad aim, but here both guns have the same rate of fire so that’s not at issue).

The argument against this would be that the Chauchat is an LMG and LMGs waste bullets on bad spread shots. There’s some validity to that, but it’s a much bigger issue for other LMGs. The Chauchat’s first shot spread multiplier is tied for the lowest of all LMGs. So its max spread is actually not super high and it gets back to its minimum spread very quickly. And its base ADS spread while moving is so low that even the shot with the most spread actually is quite low (there are quite a lot of guns in this game, including many in the Support class, that have a minimum spread while moving in ADS that is higher than the Chauchat’s highest spread on that second shot while ADS and moving).

In other words, you may be right that you waste bullets a lot more “with the typical Support weapon” than with a medic rifle. But the Chauchat is not a typical Support weapon. Its max spread values are abnormally low and it gets back to its minimum spread abnormally quickly. Meanwhile, its low rate of fire compared to other supports means you don’t waste as many bullets when you’re aiming off target. So it’s a bit wrong to say the Chauchat’s magazine size is bad because most LMGs are inaccurate bullet hoses, when the Chauchat is simply not like that.

Look at the calculations I’ve already shown on this thread. If you are ADS and moving, there is literally no number of bullets you could shoot in which there’s not more total spread over those shots on the Autoloading 8.25 Extended than there is on the Chauchat. The Chauchat is objectively a substantially more accurate gun than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended when ADS and moving. And, even when stationary in ADS, if firing at the max fire rate, the Chauchat has less total spread (defined by adding together the spread values of all the shots taken) than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended unless you’re taking only 5 shots or fewer. Obviously, that does happen, but these guns are 4 shot kills (and 5 for the Autoloading 8.25 past a certain point) outside of close range. So you’d have to be extremely accurate or come across a lot of injured enemies for the Autoloading 8.25 Extended to consistently have less total spread if you’re shooting at max RPM while stationary in ADS. The Chauchat is simply not some inaccurate bullet hose in comparison to the Autoloading 8.25 Extended.

This is the type of thinking that makes people erroneously look past the Chauchat. The Chauchat doesn’t fit with the rules of other LMGs, and you should not blindly assume that it shares the negatives of other LMGs.

Unlike other LMGs, the Chauchat’s spread is not “horrendous,” and actually is probably a strength

The Chauchat’s random spread is simply NOT horrendous. As you know, on LMGs, the second shot has the worst spread, and then it goes down from there. So let’s look at the Chauchat’s spread for those highest-spread shots, and evaluate whether or not it is “horrendous.”

If you are ADS and moving, the Chauchat’s spread on its second shot is just 0.984. That is lower than a lot of guns’ minimum possible spread while ADS and moving. For instance, it is literally impossible for the iron-sights versions of the Mondragon, the Selbstlader 1916, the RSC 1917, the Farquhar-Hill, the Howell, or the General Liu (in Medic-rifle mode) to shoot a single shot while ADS and moving that would have spread that low, because their minimum ADS spread while moving are all above 1.0. In other words, the Chauchat’s maximum spread while ADS and moving is lower than many Medic guns’ minimum spread while ADS and moving. The Chauchat is objectively an incredibly accurate ADS-while-moving weapon, with accuracy that I believe is superior to every single Medic weapon in the game in that scenario.

If you are ADS and stationary, then the Chauchat’s spread on its second shot is 0.664. Compared to Medic guns, this is essentially going to be the same as virtually all of their 6th shots (for instance, it is slightly lower than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended’s 6th shot). And obviously it goes down from there. Personally, I wouldn’t say Medic guns have “horrendous” spread on their 6th shot while stationary in ADS, though obviously this is less obviously in the Chauchat’s favor than the ADS-while-moving stats above. Relatedly, as I’ve demonstrated repeatedly on this thread, when stationary in ADS, the Chauchat has less total spread over the course of 6 or more shots than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended does. So unless you’ve got consistently fantastic aim or are consistently running into injured enemies, you’re likely to run into a ton—probably even a majority—of occasions in which the Chauchat will have less total spread than the Autoloading 8.25 Extended even while stationary in ADS.

Unlike other LMGs, the Chauchat CAN be effective with tap firing

You also blindly assume the Chauchat cannot be effective with tap firing, simply because other LMGs aren’t good at it.

But the Chauchat is actually an exception to this general rule, for two big reasons: (1) it has an extremely high spread decrease stat, and (2) it has a higher damage-per-shot than the rest of the Support weapons.

The problem for LMGs in terms of tap firing is two-fold. First and foremost, they gain massive amounts of spread from their first shot, so if you tap fire, you’ll accumulate spread really quickly. Second, they have relatively high bullets-to-kill and obviously the more bullets it takes the kill the less effective tap firing will be.

But the Chauchat Low Weight has substantially higher spread decrease than almost every single LMG in the game. The only exceptions are the Lewis Gun Low Weight and the Huot Low Weight. Those three LMGs are unique in that their spread decrease is so massive that they need only wait 0.033 extra seconds between shots to completely eliminate all spread increase. This means that these three LMGs can actually tap fire at close to their maximum firing rate without increasing their spread. However, depending on the distance, the Chauchat can kill in 1 or 2 fewer bullets than those other two weapons, so I think it’s easily the best tap-fire weapon out of the three.

The upshot is this. The Chauchat can tap fire at 299 RPM without having any spread increase at all. This is the same rate of fire as the max fire rate of guns like the Cei-Rigotti and the M1907 SL (and those guns would need to fire slower than that to eliminate all spread). Of course, the Chauchat goes up to a 4 shot kill sooner than those guns do, so those guns will be able to tap fire more effectively than the Chauchat at certain mid-range distances. But, for instance, within 20 meters and from 55 meters onwards, the Chauchat is capable of being arguably a better tap-fire weapon than the Cei-Rigotti (both have the same bullets to kill, but the Chauchat can fire at the Cei-Rigotti’s max fire rate without suffering any spread increase). Similarly, within 20 meters and from 39-54 meters, the Chauchat is capable of being arguably a better tap-fire weapon than the M1907 SL, and it is definitely better at tap firing from 55 meters onward (since the M1907 SL becomes a 5 shot kill at that range).

So, is the Chauchat the best tap fire weapon in the game? No. But it can compete with Medic weapons at tap firing at many distances, and even in those mid-range distances where it requires an extra bullet, tap-firing is viable.

you’re right about point 1. i didn’t read the description and confused it with a another stat.
so yeah we’re left with a 299 rpm.

now to your first part: I don’t know why u keep saying things like that when u don’t have back up for it. regardless I’m surely not wrong at all. it’s in fact quite the opposite of what u said: it wouldnt make sense to define the value while already taking into account reduced movement speed. given that min spread is depending on movement speed the only logical way to build a dynamic system is to define the spread-values for fixed speed-values for each gun (fixed values such as max movement speed which is always constant for all guns). why go out of your way and define other values (for example values thst define spread while moving with max ads speed) just to then make an exception loop in your code to implement the required different calculation? if spread is dependent on speed than u will have to have speed defined at any point anyways in order to calculate spread so why define the values for hip and ads differently just to then be forced to translate the speed depending on whether the setting is ads or hip again to make the correct calculations? and what if the max movement speeds while ads’ed aren’t the same for all guns like it is in bf4? such a system wouldn’t be dynamic at all. symthic just takes the numbers in the code and lists them… there is no calculations thst go into the raw data they are representing. hence the numbers provided are the ones thst are somewhere directly defined in the code. and as I said what you assume wouldn’t make any sense to define in the code at all and developers generally build dynamic systems to make them easy to manage and to modify.
regardless, here is the thread about this topic from the symthic forums that basically shows what I said: http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield-4-technical-discussion/7374-moving-ads-spread-values/

“The reason I question the importance of that, though, is that I just don’t think people tap fire at between 299 and 359 RPM very often.”
and this is your biggest mistake I think. 8.25 players do thst almost all the time and that’s exaclty the point. the 8.25 can adjust to the range easily. if you’re on mid-range you just tab a little slower than the max rof but faster than 299 cause u don’t need minimum spread… just low spread. so u maybe tab at like 320 rpm or whatever with a minimal interval of maybe 300 and max of 340. on the other hand with a chauchat 340 rpm makes your gun miss thst second shot for sure. therfore you gotta tab at something like 280 rpm maybe to not just randomly miss the shots that count the most.
and that’s not all, the issue is u really can’t tab faster than that. with a 8.25 u can tab too fast and still get decent damage output while the chauchat just goes crazy. what it really boils down to is that the chauchat is harder to use while not offering any advantages really (except for being full auto). it’s harder to master but doesn’t perform better when mastered so why would people bother?