+1000
Variables exist for a reason, and having them is where all meaningful experience comes from. Having variables means that things can go in different ways, good or bad. Without allowing room for people to do some bad things, there are no valued and meaningful experiences from when people do good things.
There can be no chance to feel like you’re clicking with other playing, working together, and pulling off an organized effort when there’s no allowance for players to make the choices of either doing something, or not doing something, cooperating, or not cooperating.
I’ve had an ammo carrier not give me ammo, despite me running after them for a couple of minutes and constantly requesting ammo. But in no way would I ever, out of the smallest mind and petty reactive behavior, use that as an argument to remove the variable, dynamic, and meaningful point of team-interaction of being reliant, dependent, upon ammo carriers to actually distribute their ammo. Their decision to enact a particular behavior is what makes the interaction real.
The day that the state of things is that there are no longer people who are willing to interact in a positive manner in games is the day that nobody wants to play games anymore.
Some people, in this thread and others, are making a big deal out of the smallest and pettiest things, such as there being the occasional lack of cooperation. That’s a part of inter-person-action-based life. And if a person can’t handle that, and wants to avoid all possibilities of such situations by removing the team-dependency variables, then they aren’t actually looking to play a team game, and so they should just play one of many DM games that are available.
Battlefield is a team-based, squad-based, class-based, communication-based, dynamics-based game, whose value and meaning comes from those variables existing, and playing out in all different kinds of ways.
It doesn’t.
My memory could very well be off, so feel free to correct me. In Hardline, how I remembering the systems functioning is: grabbing health from medics would heal you incrementally up to full health like small health bags, and grabbing ammo from supports would give you a small portion of ammo back (1-2 mags for assault rifles).
It’s not about hindering team-play mechanics, it actually improves teamwork as a whole. Think of it as an additional layer of teamwork on top of what already exists. Players that haven’t learned the importance of dropping health/ammo will contribute more towards the teams efforts.
The questions that should be asked are: does this diminish the roles by a considerable degree, and does it affect the experienced audience?
As far as grabbing ammo, my answer is a flat out no. It diminishes the role, but to a lesser degree than ammo crates in 1942 and Vietnam. It doesn’t affect experienced players either, as their efforts are still necessary. Getting back a small portion of ammo gives new players more value, but their value isn’t in replenishing ammo but rather in giving you what you need to find someone that does.
Health is where I can see a problem. Health regenerates, and so health is a resource that is continuously replenished with or without the medic. The role itself was diminished in comparison to the classic titles, and in Hardline players were able to heal back to full, further diminishing the role.
It didn’t affect experienced players, but it could be argued that the effectiveness of this ability was too great considering it’s passive as far as the medic is concerned. The payout was almost equal to that of a health box. The question is though, if you could only get 20HP from this, then would it be an issue? I’d argue that it wouldn’t. 20 additional HP isn’t much, and the same logic applies as with the support: it would merely serve as a means as getting to a medic that drops health.
Ultimately, the system creates an additional layer to teamwork, and it serves to compliment the existing mechanic. It lowers the learning curve, without impacting the skill ceiling.
Respect to you Turbo_Siats to bring some sense in these people.
It’s clear that the comminity is deeply devided in subjects such as these. The reason is a growth of two types of players. On the one hand more supportiveplayers that care less about personal glory but more care for the team. On the other side more individual players that play for more personal glory. So on one hand teamplayers vs sologamers.
That’s why I think the whole assaultmedic is a wrong setup to begin with. It began with bf3 as the assaultmedic. In bfbc2 the assault had a ammobox, grenadelauncher, assaultrifle. The medic had a LMG and his medicstuff. The medic in bfbc2 was way more supportive than bf3’s and bf4’s. It had a LMG to surpress and was decent on the the midrange to long. The assault had a good rifle and could refill himself and thus refilling the squad that fought behind him. Now the assaultmedic is THE main fightingmachine on the frontlines. How can you expect that someone like that have time to revive and heal other players? It’s main purpose is to destroy the enemy infantry. There is barely no time for supportive play . Especially if you take the ridiculous short time you can revive other players into account. The time to respawn is so short in bf4 that is hardly worth it to equip a defib!
My experience with this system in Hardline was terrible. Teamwork should be subscribed to, not coerced. Do you think Dice never thought about this prior to Hardline? I am sure they have, but I am also sure that they realized it will change a whole lot of team-mechanics, class roles, and even game-play experience.
I am starkly against this. This is almost a deal-breaker for me, as it negates the whole purpose of teamwork in the Battlefield.
Agree. They are tinkering with the fundaments of Battlefield. It undermines teamwork.
Please no, don’t add this feature, keep the few teamplay features Battlefield still have… Don’t add this…
I repost this message trying to save some of the Battlefield franchise’s soul.
Nobody plays BFH and this feature is one of the reasons. People don’t see it because they don’t know game design but that is one of the reasons. Please don’t add this.
Don’t let players decide, in their vast majority they don’t know anything about how to create an interesting and balanced game.
Here’s a different way of looking at it: grabbing 1-2 mags for your assault rifle delays the need to find an ammo box. The ammo perk did this as well, and extended mags can do this as well, depending on how it functions. Should those mechanics be removed as well? They also diminish the support role.
How did this mechanic for the support role impact your experience with Hardline? Strictly just this mechanic alone, how did it undermine any of your actions? How did it affect any other mechanics in place?
I always move away from threads that have the same arguments over and over again. However curiousity got me back seeing this thread still up.
It undermines the actions of those who are supportive players and it undermines also the players that are not giving ammo or medic bags. These solistic players are definitely not going to change if gamemechanics such as these are become common. The supportive players are already there but it is the sologamer that needs to be educated
You’re right, this system won’t encourage players to drop down ammo. So the question is, how does it discourage them from doing so? The rewards are higher for dropping ammo, both for the support player and the players that require it. Dropping ammo puts you higher on the scoreboard, and you’re a bigger asset to your team for doing so. This mechanic gives value to players that never drop ammo, as they’re now a slightly more valuable asset than they were before. However, how does this increase in value discourage better performance?
You’re saying that it undermines the roles, but how? You’re stating it, but not giving any examples or rationale behind it.
Hardline is proof that this mechanic does not hurt either gameplay or team work. Team players are still team players and solo players are still solo. No single game mechanic can change how people choose to play.
I do not speak hypotheticaly. I have spent hundreds of hours playing both Medic and Support roles in Hardline. This mechanic is almost unnoticable in game. I can also state unequivocally that not one single solitary time has this game mechanic stopped me from dropping resources and helping my team.
There is literally zero downside in my opinion.
People feel a vested interest in the franchise that they have invested so much time into. I get that and it is a good thing. You can spend your time worrying about a possible game mechanic that may or may not be in the game but it’s like sitting in a rocking chair, It gives you something to do but in the end it doesn’t get you anywhere.
I think I am perfectly clear.
It undermines teamplay because players that need to be educated don’t play their role. My team of supportive players has every right to crush your solistic playerteam. Because my team is refilled and yours run dry. Now your team of solistic players still have a fighting chance. By implementing these gamemechanics it says basically that players are to dumb to play their role. The game treats us as a moron.
Think about it like this. An ammo box is full of loaded magazines, grenades, etc. A support player can have ammo taken off of him, but it’d only be one magazine or so. Which allows you to get some extra ammo if the guy is running offensive support and not putting down boxes, however not enough to sustain you for a lot of fighting. Especially playing hardcore where you can’t see your ammo count, this could be useful with the aforementioned cool down and a very small amount of ammo given (like a mag or so)
Wrong, the team that doesn’t drop ammo will run dry very quickly. The cooldown prevents ammo from being continuously taken, and the ammo that is picked up will often be depleted before the cooldown resets.
It seems like your argument is that a lower learning curve is a bad thing, which just isn’t the case for casual play. The opposite is true if the skill ceiling isn’t affected.
That is part of the issue those 3 points are not even mention as argument for tag supply, because it would hurt them on the larger maps or gadget Ammo like RPG?
Hardline has less vehicles to deal with. Many BF4 maps had more Engineers then Support or Assault combined, but lower ammo counts means the need for more support players.
With Tag ammo on small maps means easy access to ammo, you then need to add tag health to help balance it.
Now you have more players needing to play 2 Class just to carry a gadget to help the team, while 2 other Class that only help themselves become more dominate as they have gadgets that only help them get more kills. Then you end up with 1 style of play dominating the boards, you end up with BF becoming more arena FPS where only 1 skill set matters.
I think you both make good points. 100% tag ammo really does dumb the game down. Yet, the game is already dumbed down (in a different way) when you play with teammates that don’t play their role.
Maybe-
Tag Ammo that refills only a portion (as suggested); but, once pulled from the providing player, that player has to drop an ammo bag to refill his own tag ammo pouch? And he can’t give out any more tag-ammo, until he dos this? Maybe when he’s “tagged” a warning/msg/indicator pops up, and stays on until he drops a full bag…?
In this way, the initial tag is more like a tap on the shoulder, letting the support player know that he needs to play his “support” role right now?
Edit
In this way, the team-role-play mechanic is still in place, because the support player is now notified when his tag pouches are used, and he himself has to drop full ammo bags in order to refill his own “tag-pouches” which in the process would fully refill whoever was nearby.
This addresses the issue that @snavelaer had (the solistic vs supportive issue). It also ensures @Bertominus_Rex 's claim that allowing taggable ammo wouldn’t kill teamwork…and, it rewards both teams for being supportive. Not that dice would ever see or do this. (Also- I could see a flashing indicator as a bit obtrusive).
I agree
It’s a teamwork game.
It’s based on classes filling roles.
If you want health or ammo, play as that class or find a friend who does.
Or get shot less/ don’t waste ammo.
Again it’s a team based game, work with your team, use the rose or the mics.
By being able to take health and ammo from teammates it doesn’t lower the learning curve it makes it higher. There is no learning involved in dropping ammo. By making it so that tag ammo refills certain portion and have to drop a ammobox or a cooldown or only mag it makes it rather complicated. The sololistic gamer is the problem. By adding mechanics that counter his stupidness it becomes even worse. Although nice and with the best intentions the gamerules get more and more complicated. Complicated rules doesn’t make a game better…period. It also increase the chance of glitches and what not. I beg for simple gamerules.
In your world it somehow strengthens your point. The learning curve invcrease with such a mechanic.
@H-HOUR your suggestion aint bad though with refilling tag ammo. Yet tagammo is a bad mechanic that counter bad suportplayers.
I thought stealing their health like leeching. I would damage myself and do that 24/7