No, the learning curve would be decreased. Added mechanics don’t equal to a higher learning curve.
Here’s an example, items in games. These items may heal you, give you buffs, or replenish other resources. They’re added mechanics, but they lower the learning curve. A learning curve isn’t what you have to learn, but rather the skills required to progress through a game.
In the case of Battlefield, players that don’t drop ammo are given additional value towards victory, and they’ve essentially become small ammo beacons. New players are bigger assets than they were before, thus lessening the pressure to learn and easing new players into their roles.
As much as I wanted to, I couldn’t find a string anywhere in your point that would allow me to pull it apart.
I still think being able to take your own ammo & health is a good idea.
You have an excellent counter-point to such a system, however, it still doesn’t seem to address the biggest problem; the selfish player who refuses to drop ammo/medpacks, other than saying something like “we need those bad players to remind us what a good player does.” While true in a social sense, it’s a video game. We want to win. We can’t win if chuckleheads on our team are oblivious to the needs of the other teammates.
So dropping ammo is a skill? Didn’t know. Maybe you didn’t noticed but the people that don’t drop ammo are not new players. If it would be new player the reason why they don’t drop ammo is easily explained. They are new.
So by countering bad players their value is increased? Indeed but they should be punished instead of a’value’ increase.
New players rarely drop ammo, but yes - experienced players can often fail to get into the habit as well.
In a competitive mode, punishing mistakes can play a valuable role. It can add layers of strategy that weren’t there before. However, in casual modes? That argument is a lot harder to make.
Why not remove health regeneration, bullet counters, and full squad spawning from the Normal ruleset? Players should be punished for getting shot, punished for reloading early, and punished for dying, right?
It’s not that simple, though. The Normal ruleset is there to lower the learning curve, and to provide an enjoyable experience for new and invested players alike. The goal is to craft a learning curve low enough to bring in new players in, and a skill ceiling high enough to keep the invested audience playing.
Experienced in how many hours played? Dropping ammo is learned in three sentences. Here it comes; Dear player. The class support is excellent in giving suppressive fire with his LMG. He also has a ammobox to provide his team with ammo and ofcourse himself. Drop by directional button left (?)
these new players are not the problem .I don’t get no ammo and health since bfbc2.
The problem is way more depressing than lack of skill or ‘bad teamplayer’ I’m afraid…
You give up your case. People often try to “win” discussions with empty statements, but give no real rationale or examples to back up their arguments. “I rest my case” is meaningless if there’s no explanation behind it.
This mechanic isn’t a solution to the issue of players neglecting to drop ammo, but rather a means to diminish the annoyance that this causes.
I agree, it would be nice to fix the issue of players not dropping ammo, but that’s always been an issue with exception to 1942 and Vietnam as they didn’t have that mechanic.
I understand that you want to win a debate. I am not here on these forums to win debates. My intententions to be here is only to help Dice make the best Battlefield possible. Battlefield1 or beyond…
Now you say I try to win but you know you got yourself hopelessly stuck by saying dropping ammo is a skill. Which had no arguments or rationale either.
It’s annoyance…true
Imagine we both work on a battlefield. We both want to adress this annoyance. But we both have veto rights. You say to me; Snavelaer we do tagammo. Bertominus_Rex sorry I have to dissmis it for a number of reasons but I still want to adress this annoyance. Than what you say ?
If that was the case, then you wouldn’t have said something as meanlingless as “case closed”.
I don’t care about “winning” debates, as there’s no such thing as winning one. Exploring topics is the reward in itself, but there’s very little to explore when no examples or rationale are given on the opposing end.
Skill is nothing more than a particular ability. Opening a door in a video game is a skill: you’ve learned that a specific button press while the crosshair is on the door will open that said door. It required learning, you can get better at it, and it’s an ability that you perform.
Feel free to show me any other empty statements I made. I try to push you to give examples and rationale as a means to push the discussion forward. If you can’t provide solid arguments, then I poke holes in them. Unfortunately, you’ve done very little when backing up your own statements.
Everything what I said is backing up my own statements. You blame me for a oneliner and your last 4 sentences are even worse than that. I bet you alway say those 4 sentences when you feel you lost a debate. Don’t even reply I have seen enough.
You made 3 statements: the mechanic undermines roles, players that don’t drop ammo won’t change due to these mechanics, and that they need to be changed. 3 statements, with nothing behind them.
I responded by agreeing, that yes - these mechanics won’t change the behaviour. I asked if it would discourage players from doing so, which was ignored. If it doesn’t encourage or discourage players, then it’s an irrelevant point.
I then point out that your arguments had nothing to back them up, and asked you to explain as to why. This was your biggest point, after all.
You reply by stating that you were perfectly clear. Perfectly clear with a point that consisted of a single sentence?
None the less, you gave your explanation.
I replied by explaining why that was wrong, and gave you an explanation as to why. I then made an assumption as to what your point was with the last two sentences. I took “players are too dumb to play their role”, and “game treats us as morons” as you thinking that a lower learning curve is bad.
Admittedly, I never read the first part of your reply. I figured it was a reply to someone else and skipped it to read what you said directly towards the quote. None the less, you’re points are that: it makes the learning curve higher, there is no learning involved in dropping ammo, and that adding mechanics can cause bugs.
Adding mechanics can definitely increase the chance of creating bugs, but that’s not a valid reason to not add in new mechanics. First you consider the design decision, then you consider technical limitations. It’s an iterative process, and the design decision itself may change due to technical limitations. However, we don’t know what’s limiting mechanics from being implemented, and so we’re focused purely on the first step.
I replied by explaining why the learning curve would be decreased.
You ignored my argument, and gave no counter-points. You fell back to your second point that there’s no learning involved in dropping ammo. You then made the statement that players should be punished, with no reasoning as to why.
I made an empty statement that yes, dropping ammo is a skill. Answered your question that indeed, I realize that not all players that neglect to drop ammo are new. However, they are a subset of this group.
I then give you an explanation as to why casual modes benefit from lower learning curves, which you ignored. Then the discussion becomes a mess after this point. I explained why dropping ammo is a skill, which you ignored as well. You made no strong arguments against my own.
At this point, anyone reading this must be thinking, “You have way too much time on your hands”. You’re right. I’m not proud of myself.
I feel like this would further discourage teamwork, your squad and teammates should have the responsibility of actively providing support. I don’t like the “do it yourself” tone taking health and ammo would project, versus how giving promotes being an active member of a squad.
Hardline received below-average reviews all-around, so it’s unlikely that people would say much about a very specific aspect of the gameplay, like tag-replenishment, when they expressed a general dissatisfaction with the package as a whole, and then moved on.
Also, most Battlefield players haven’t played Hardline. And regarding those that have, when people don’t stick with playing Hardline multiplayer, they aren’t going to get around to nit-picking its smaller parts.
Holy cow we wrote a lot. I understand that I am sometimes hard to follow I will do my best.
It undermines the fundaments of Battlefield in my opinion. Teamplay ruling over sololistic play. However gameplaymechanic as this undermines that Battlefield rule; Teamplay ruling solistic play because now a team can still get a couple of mags without working together.
I said that the player that doesn’t drop ammo needs to be educated. He needs to learn that dropping ammo is needed so he and his fellow teammates can continuing fire their guns. It doesn’t discourages or encourages players to drop ammo as well.
The learning curve is not lowered it is more ‘confused’ or higher maybe because apperently people can still fire guns around that support without dropping a box. You view learning curve different, ok.
First there is hardly a learning curve in dropping a box.
I said further that the team that drops ammo should win over the team that doesn’t which you reply that you disagree and than say the same as me . Which I found odd. You additioned that there is a cooldown. It still means it undermines my attempts as a good support. The good support is less needed because there is tagammo. Your stealing my job !!! Get your dirty hands out of my ammobag that’s my job.
A job I and many others have a passion for. I love the supportive role. I love the supportive roles Battlefield provide. Repairing other guys tank, healing a few guys so we keep firepower. Throwing motion sensors so friendlies can see what is in front them etc. I love it when that good player get downed, I revive him or refill . We can continuing fighting. The argument ; But it doesn’t get in the way is true maybe but let me do my job. Don’t let some automated mechanic take my job I love.
Players should be punished in the sense their team runs dry.
Your definiton of skill is learning the button of the ammobox.
You fall over certain definitions and go into detail totally not relevant to the discussion. You say I ignore certain replies. Maybe because I think they are irrelevant.
Get your dirty hands out of our Ammobox. We have a passion for our supportive role. Making it ‘automatic’ ruines the fun. We always delivered our own ammo but it seems we get replaced by automatic ammodispensers.
I think that this mechanic worked in Hardline, but I think BF1 should not use this. BF1 should be gritty and atmospheric, and if DICE do that, then adding this mechanic, would take away some of the immersiveness.
Right. If the medic/support are just too oblivious to drop health/ammo, then people should be able to take it. There is no downside to this. Take care of your teammates and it’s not an issue at all.
Allowing taggable ammo/meds only re-encourages these to not play their role. They’re already oblivious to thinking past their own goals as is. Absolutely no understanding as to why you resupply players in the first place. It’s not about friggin points/xp.
You fully resupply assault/medics so they have the ability to be in the fight, cover your backside and provide you with meds/revives. You fully resupply engineers so they have the tools to take out the vehicles that are without a doubt about to roflstomp you into oblivion.
Regardless if the assault/engi does their job you should be thinking ahead and making sure they have what they need to do everything in their power to keep you in the fight.
The same applies to assault/medics. They should be dropping meds to keep their supply line and antivehicle players alive.
The more we do to encourage this mentality the better. Taggables are meant for the new and should only be, if at all, in the “Intro to BF/learning/training” preset with all the other game-assisted features.