Being able to take ammo or health from teammates

Battlefield 1 General Discussion
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People like you have a vastly different picture of what Battlefield should be and become. Not better or worse but totally different. I can total understand why you would something like tagammo and that it even works to some extend. But it seems you don’t understand us. The downside to this mechanic is it steals our job. We have a deep passion for the supportive role but mechanics like these makes us ‘less’ needed. Some of you say it’s a value increase, I oppose that…

I guess it’s different form of fun that you like but I really don’t. And don’t think for a second that I don’t think it’s annoying that I don’t get ammo. But I rather run across the map behind a support than this mechanic.

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How does this steal your job? You can still play whatever class you choose in whatever manner you choose to play it.

Oblivious solo players can still play whatever class they choose in whatever manner they choose as well.

The only change is that if a player is stuck on a team full of Oblivious solo players that refuse to play as a team, then that stuck player wouldn’t be effected as much.

To reiterate: You can still play the way you always have. This game mechanic can not force you to stop dropping resources.

If the argument is that the overall value of the medical / support classes will be deminished, I can understand that fear. I would however put forth the notion that good team players will always highly value other good team players of any class.

I.E. in hundreds of hours of Hardline I have never, not one single time, had my teammates tell me that I shouldn’t run medic or drop meds because they can just tag randoms for it. My teammates value my team play, as I value theirs.

I understand the fears and the need to enjoy your game. Maybe you have not spent much or any time playing Hardline, but hopefully we are able to ease those fears slightly.

My best advice would be play your class, your way in the beta and see if you even notice this mechanic being used before assuming the worst. That is of course assuming that this mechanic even makes it into the game.

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Is it possible that ‘bad’ support players don’t give ammo because they like the power and love to deny your fun? Or… they love it if you run out of ammo because they are afraid that you ‘might’ steal their kill.
Time to get to bed I guess…

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Nope. I don’t want it.

Teamwork should be a part of Battlefield. If your team doesn’t have teamwork it loses. The team with better teamwork wins. That’s a part of Battlefield.

Don’t ask for an easier game, ask to be a better player.

285

That’s ridiculous. What’s the point of having classes then? Why remove teamwork requirements from the game.

This kind of mentality reduces the skill gap in the game and pushes it more towards COD. Teamwork should matter, classes should matter, communications and squadwork should matter.

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Honestly I think tag ammo would strengthen those classes. Currently there is an “unknown % chance” that requests for ammo/health will be completely ignored…so huffing it across the map to a support/medic has an unknown “risk/reward” value. As a result, there is almost no incentive to play as a unit.

Allowing taggable ammo/health would increase the value of those support classes, in the viewpoint of all other classes.

And playing as that class- could you imagine if instead of people blocking your path through a door for ammo, instead they just grab it from you? You’re still playing the same role. You just are doing it with increased efficiency.

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Then by that argument, should health regeneration, bullets as ammo rather than magazines, and full squad spawning be removed from the “Normal” ruleset?

All those mechanics diminish skill or teamwork to some degree, and so they should all be removed right?

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First of all, the “Reward” paradigm used by psychology is a fallacy, isn’t real, and is progressively being phased out of understanding of how mind and people operate. Nothing should be centered around such a concept, because such a concept is a falsehood.

But also, there’s supposed to be an unknown factor: The human factor. This is a multiplayer and team game, where the multiple players are humans, and the teams are made of humans, and the replenishment roles are roles for humans, to be experienced between humans and through their human interaction. It isn’t intended, logical, or desired to be a mechanical function that’s promised to be there… and if it was, then why have those things dependent upon a class played by another human? If that was the goal, then every player of every class would have a ‘replenish ammo / health’ button, and they’d be topped up every time they pressed it.

It’s the working through the dynamics of the game that creates meaningful experiences. Meaningful experiences are not achieved by triggering quantified certainties, and I think that’s the point of those people interested in tag-replenishment: They don’t care for those roles, or the gameplay mechanic, the team-play… they simply want to have health and ammo as much as possible so they can max K/D and pew-pew nonstop. They aren’t looking to play the game, but instead they’re chasing some sterile, technical, narrow and desperate want to have an edge over other players by making other classes simply cater to their own pew-pew.

But what they’re after isn’t Battlefield, and their quest to reduce the qualities of Battlefield is like me going into a high-class restaurant, and saying it would be better if it were McDonald’s. Well, you want that, then go to McDonald’s, and don’t tell the high-class restaurant that it should be McDonald’s, or say that their gourmet steak should be more like deep-fat-fried Mc Nuggets.

Every time DICE over-simplifies the game they’re working on (which happens a lot), they get poor reviews, and the player-base isn’t there. Look at Hardline, Battlefront… DICE haven’t scored a home run in gamers’ and game-critics’ eyes in a long time. The last thing DICE need to be doing to Battlefield 1 is aiming for a simplistic, mindless, homogenized experience, which is what always leads to DICE getting a mediocre reception for their games.

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Whether you want to call it “risk/reward” or “cost/benefit” or “success/failure” the fact remains that there is an “unknown % chance” that requests for ammo/health will be ignored…this rate plays a role in the decision matrix of the player. We know this, because it is completely binary. Either a player heals you, or they don’t. There’s nothing in between…and since players have memory, it doesn’t take long to develop a “field-behavior-profile” of their fellow squad mates.

We know that profiling is common, because regardless of whatever “flavor of the month” paradigm is currently popular, I profile other players all the time. I know who will repair/heal/give ammo, and I know who won’t. And I I don’t need to prove that everyone develops profiles based upon Risk/Reward, just that I do it. That is sufficient.

Anyways…

If what you’re worried about is over simplification, then you actually support taggable ammo.

How can i say this? Let’s see…what is the definition of simple? (One quick google search…)

“Simple:
composed of a single element; not compound.
synonyms: noncompound, noncomplex, uncombined, unblended, unalloyed, pure, single”

Well…this certainly fits the current way that health is given out. One singular method. It’s literwlly the definition of simple.

So if you’re truly worried about over simplification, then you’ve checked the box to add taggable ammo/health…This is by definition, the only way to make the mechanic “not simple.”

lol…

Finally- to address the “why have the class at all?”

Well, because that’s what class based games have. They have classes. these classes are intended to heal/replenish. I suspect Hardline was a product of the realization that classes were not being used the way they were intended to be used by the designers…so they designed a work around.

another example are the dedicated classes (pilot / tanker) for BF1. Vehicles are not being used as intended, so they are designing a work around.

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another example are the dedicated classes (pilot / tanker) for BF1. Vehicles are not being used as intended, so they are designing a work around.

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But that’s a good work around.

The game slides more and more to the left of my VERSUS. Gameplay that’s watered down. Classes that are less distinctive. Battlefield was a premium beer and now they mixed it up with ‘sprite, 7UP’ so certain people can digest it better.
And if I step on your sensitive toes… Good. Because although it’s a ‘taste’ thing I think the taste of Battlefield4/Hardline has zero ‘taste’. It’s the Mcdonalds equivalent of a FPS. That used to be COD…

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But that’s a good work around.

The game slides more and more to the left of my VERSUS. Gameplay that’s watered down. Classes that are less distinctive. Battlefield was a premium beer and now they mixed it up with ‘sprite, 7UP’ so certain people can digest it better.
And if I step on your sensitive toes… Good. Because although it’s a ‘taste’ thing I think the taste of Battlefield4/Hardline has zero ‘taste’. It’s the Mcdonalds equivalent of a FPS. That used to be COD… [/quote]

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I actually think the dedicated pilot/tanker classes will encourage more CoD-like gameplay. From what I hear, if a medic enters a tank, he’ll leave the tank as a tanker class. And that if said player wants to spawn in to the tank, he can only do it by changing to the tanker class…If this is true, what does it mean?

It means if you want to play medic primarily, you’ll avoid entering tanks, and youll never spawn on tanks. This means there will be many situations where it forces the tankers to play lone wolf without you, and forces the medics to play lone wolf without the support of their squad tank (unless they introduce an exterior-tank spawn). If you’re trying to cap a flag, and the closest thing to that objective is a tank, and your only other spawn point is a long ways away…you might choose to spawn a long ways away, because you don’t want to be forced into being a tanker…

This just goes to show how drastically irate DICE has become, with players who refuse to play their class role as Dice intended… I really doubt that many support/medics are actively checking the scoreboard to see if they should help the player asking for health/ammo…i assume there are basically 3 prime truths:

  1. they’re aware of their intended role, and perform it
  2. they’re aware of their intended role, and reject it
  3. they’re unaware of their intended role

There’s nothing negative about ensuring a player meets point 1…unless it drastically alters gameplay. Taggable ammo/health could drastically alter gameplay, but only if “everyone” plays as medic/support… (And we know for a fact they won’t. If tankers want to tank, they can’t be medics; but if tankers are on the field, so will anti-tankers be on the field; and if anti-tankers are on the field, anti-infantry will also be on the field. It’s rock-paper-scissors…guarantees that no one class will be prevalent at all times).

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The tanker class applies to the tank’s commander. Once you take command of the tank you become a tanker. There may be bleed over in some of the tanks where certain gun positions require the tanker class, but not all positions.

For example the British Mark V…Weapons: 2x 6-pounder (57-mm) Guns/cannons, 4x.303 in (7.7-mm) Hotchkiss Mk 1 Machine Guns, Crew: 8 (commander, driver, and six gunners)

Not all in this tank would be deemed tankers.

For 2 seater planes only the pilot is deemed a Pilot.
Taggables are weak sauce.

295

But the helis presumably don’t auto-fly, and doesn’t auto-fire at targets on the ground when team-mates spot them, which would be analogous to tag-health / tag-ammo. Making pilots a class dedicated to their role, meaning that the role is in their control, is analogous to there not being any tag-replenishment.

Players shouldn’t be coerced into playing a role by circumventing their role… that takes away all sense of “reward”, or whatever a person wishes to call it.

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Well I could also make a work around. Not saying it’s the holy grail.
Limit the mags of a support. Normally every class has 4 mags (I don’t know). The support has now 3 (?)
Let the support have 2 mags. Now he’s forced to throw a bag more often. It also gives the ‘illussion’ of teamwork because he throws more bags for himself chances increase he also ressuplies his teammates.

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But they are still making the pilot/tanker class, in order to correct for players that aren’t using vehicles in their intended manner (using a chopper/jet/tank etc…as a taxi, for instance).

I enliken a medic or support player refusing to play their role, as pretty similar to someone else using a vehicle as a taxi…

The support classes are like vehicles themselves…they have intended roles, just like vehicles have intended roles. If players don’t want to play the intended role…it’s possible Dice will force it.

Hardline did- who knows if they will follow suit in BF1. Id probably prefer it…but it wouldn’t matter one way or the other.

I didn’t know that- good to know!

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While it further increases the gap of needing to rely on your teammates, I guess it is necessary at this point. Considering how few people still play this game with teamwork in mind. It’s kind of sad this is now a necessary mechanic.

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But the difference is that a person who uses a vehicle as a taxi takes away vehicle-availability from the team, whereas the odd person who plays as medic and doesn’t distribute health to your liking doesn’t take away medic-availability from the team, as any player can choose to become a medic to fulfill the medic’s role for themselves and others, if they have a problem there not being enough medical distribution on their team. A player cannot similarly make a new vehicle spawn to be a good vehicle-player, if someone is using a vehicle as a taxi.

When it comes to health/ammo, it’s in each player’s control to do something about the situation, if their judgement is that the situation could be improved, without forcing anything upon other players.

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I agree 100%
If someone takes a medic/supply role, they should automatically know they’re gonna be needed to drop ammo or health. The fact that they don’t care enough to help out the team is ridiculous.